Loader specification question

[jbwilson]

My manual says that the maximum lift capacity of the fel for my tractor (Yanmar EA2400) is 700 lbs at pivot. My question is whether the lifting capacity need to take the weight of the bucket into account or is there a standard that says the specification is for a fel with a bucket attached?

I am asking this as I soon will need a first service carried out and the dealer says he can get more lifting capacity if I need to. I have a dealer fitted 4 in 1 bucket which I guess the weight at around 300lbs, probably around 100 lbs or so heavier than a standard bucket. I can lift around 400 lbs equivalent at the pivot point. Therefore my tractor meets the specification providing it means that the capacity includes the bucket weight. However if the specification excludes the weight of say a standard bucket, then I would ask the dealer to extract a little more lifting capacity.

Your expertise on this would be deeply appreciated.

John

 

[xring100]

I'm pretty sure that number is capacity of just the loader, any attachments on the loader would be subtracted from that number.

 

[kennyd]

I'm pretty sure that number is capacity of just the loader, any attachments on the loader would be subtracted from that number.

That is the way I understand it to be as well.

 

[jbwilson]

Thank you. I'll advise the dealer that the fel is fine and no adjustment is needed. I don't know what adjustment could be made anyway if the loader meets or exceeds specification. i have already found that the tractor's capabilities for the 3pt exceeds specification by about 10% or so and the fel seems to be the same. It's nice to know that specifications given are slightly conservative.

John

 

[xring100]

They just turn up the pressure on the relief valve going to the loader to give you more capacity.

 

[mikehaugen]

Thank you. I'll advise the dealer that the fel is fine and no adjustment is needed. I don't know what adjustment could be made anyway if the loader meets or exceeds specification. i have already found that the tractor's capabilities for the 3pt exceeds specification by about 10% or so and the fel seems to be the same. It's nice to know that specifications given are slightly conservative.

John

I think you are mis-understanding, they are saying that the specification does not include ANY bucket. If that is a concern, then you should probably talk to the dealer about making the adjustment if it is something that they recommend. I was under the impression that the reliefs were set at the max recommended setting for given tractor, I am surprised that they would be willing to turn it up.

Maybe I am misunderstanding though.

 

[jbwilson]

They just turn up the pressure on the relief valve going to the loader to give you more capacity.

Thank you. I won't need to do this now given that specifications are met, although it's good to know this is possible. I previously adjusted the relief valve to obtain stronger bucket dump performance because the bucket flopped too much when I was back grading. It works well now to the extent that I can lift the front of the tractor using the dump function - which I understand is how it should be.

The relief valve for the dump function on my tractor is located on a blocked attached to my loader arm. The block has 3 sets of hose inlets and outlets, with 2 hoses going to an electric solenoid diverter valve to operate the bucket curl/bucket open and dump/close function and the 3rd hose to operate the fel lift. The hose inlet/outlet ports are marked T1 (bucket curl/open), T2 (fel lift) and A1, A2 (bucket dump). I gather that the relief valve on this block operates the bucket dump A1, A2 ports only and that the block otherwise serves only to keep the fel hoses tidy.

Anyway when I turned the relief valve in clockwise (2 turns) it made a massive improvement to the bucket dump/close function.

Again thank you for your advice.

John

 

[J_J]

Never heard anything like you describe for the loader.

Do you have a FEL valve and another valve like this? If so , this is a diverter valve for use with a grapple., and is installed in the curl circuit hydraulics. The lift , curl, and grapple would be controlled with a lever valve. The diverter vale is controlled by a switch.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Instruct/I9-7852.pdf

Can you show pictures of your setup?

 

[IceStationZebra]

Every capacity test I have ever done or looked at is with a bucket or specified attachment. It it useless to quote the capacity without the attachment because you will never use it like that.

The capacity with a bucket is stated as worst case, at the center of the mass of a heaped load, with some safety factor (which varies by product and standards organization). For a standard FEL this would be with the appoximate center of the bucket at the same hight as the lift arm pivots. Unless otherwise stated your grapple is taking away from your usefull load. You may not notice it though because of the safety factor, which is mandated by SAE/ISO.

Usually the capacity is stated with the "standard" bucket, but sometimes they will list it for each optional bucket/attachment. I have heard that some skid loader companies "cheat" and list the capacity of a machine with special short foundry buckets. This makes a difference because the center of mass is closer to the machine, allowing a higher lift capacity.

ISZ

 

[jbwilson]

Mikehaugan - your quote "they are saying that the specification does not include ANY bucket"

From Xring100 and Kennyd, my understanding is that if the fel specification says 700 lbs lift capacity at pivot, the weight limit of the material that can be carried is 400lbs (pivot point equivalent) if the bucket weighs 300lbs. In asking the question I thought that there may have been some tractor engineering standard that says that any fel weight specification given would be the maximum weight that can be carried by a standard bucket. My understanding now is that the specified fel capacity has to cover the weight of the bucket - even if the bucket comes standard with the loader.

J.J. - I'll try and post some photos later today.

John

 

[jbwilson]

J.J.

Yes - In between the FEL valve and the diverter valve, there is an aluminium "block" into which 3 of the 4 FEL hoses lead into and out from. The markings on the block for the hose connections are T1 - a paired connection for the bucket curl hose, T2 a paired connection for the loader lift, A for the in hose for the bucket dump and A1 for the out hose for the bucket dump. The FEL drop hose bypasses the block.

The T1 out hose for the bucket curl and the A1 hose for the bucket dump leads to the diverter valve as per your link - the diverter valve switches the bucket curl to bucket open and the bucket dump to bucket close when you press the button on top of the joystick of the FEL valve. The block has a relief valve which seems to only operate for the bucket dump/close function (the A1 outlet).

I don't know the purpose of the block other than for allowing the pressure to be adjusted for the bucket dump/close function. It's a mystery to me as to the purpose of the T1 and T2 connections - why does the FEL lift hose and bucket curl/open hoses go through this block - why can't these hoses bypass this block altogether the same way as the FEL lowering hose.

Pictures attached comprise of 1208) my tractor, 1209) FEL valve, 1218) the pump connection to the FEL valve (is that the correct terminology/understanding?), 1219) the mysterious "block" and 1212) the diverter valve.

John

 

[J_J]

The hyd block on most tractors is located about mid tractor.

The purpose of the hyd block is to route the pump fluid to the loader and back to the remote or 3pt. The purpose of a diverter or selector valve on the loader is to divert the curl flow to the a grapple when the switch is activated.

You haven't mention a lever type loader valve.

Do you have a lever valve to control lift and curl on your loader?

The relief valve on the hyd block is probably the main relief for the tractor.

 

[jbwilson]

J.J.

I have a joystick to operate the FEL valve which sits on top of the valve (4th picture). The joystick operates the FEL raise and lower and the bucket dump and curl. The joystick also has a button on top which when pressed activates the electric diverter valve which opens and closes the 4 in 1 bucket in lieu of curling and dumping the bucket.

The FEL valve has 7 ports - I imagine one from the pump, one for power beyond to operate the 3 pt linkage, one to tank, and 4 to operate the working functions of the FEL. Of the 4 FEL hoses, one goes directly to the side of the cylinder to lower the FEL. The other 3 hoses (FEL raise, bucket dump and curl) leads to this mysterious block attached to the loader arm - the 2nd picture. The one with the valve on top that adjusts the pressure for the bucket dump only, I think.

From the mysterious block, one hose leads out to the side of the cylinder to raise the FEL. Another 2 hoses controlling the bucket functions lead out to the electric diverter valve (1st picture). I think I understand the operation of the diverter valve - electric current off means joystick will dump/curl bucket; electric current on means joystick will open/close bucket.

It's the function of the mysterious block that's located on the loader arm that I'm puzzled about, other than it has a valve that adjusts the pressure for the bucket dump function. I'm in territory that I'm completely ignorant about. I'm guessing that this block is not the hydraulic block that you refer to but is something else, and peculiar to this tractor and dealer set-up. I also realised that my terminology may be incorrect - I previously referred to the valve on the mystery block as a pressure relief valve. Should I have called this valve a pressure adjustment valve? Could this block have another function, say, to adjust the pressure or flow for the bucket curl or FEL lift that I cannot see.

Also, have I understood your questions correctly?

Thank you

John

 

[Leejohn]

Sounds like the plumbing isn't right. Way are you hooked into the boom up and down ports? And are you sure the adjuster is for the speed of the grabber?

 

[kennyd]

That block probably has to do with the self-leveling system that all loaders in Australia are required to have. That would explain why both the lift and curl circuits go through it.

 

[Leejohn]

Well that is why! Thanks.

 

[J_J]

How many of you have dumped stuff on your tractor of yourself.

Apparently there are mechanical self levelers and hyd self levelers, and level indicators.

The hyd ones use hyd pressure to self level, and the adjustment on the hyd block may be the pressure adjust, similar to a relief valve. There seems to be another set of cyl on some self leveling tractors.

The selector/diverter valve, is used to control the curl and the 4 in 1 cyl.

 

[SSdoxie]

The adjustment screw on hydraulic self-level adjusts the rate of flow (ratio) of oil coming out of the lift cylinder that is sent to the bucket cylinder to control amount of level. Turning it out adds more oil to the bucket dump, turning it in is less giving it less self-levle action. I supsect when JB turned his in 2 turns, it reduced the flow and thus cavitation being caused by the heavier 4 in 1 bucket, so now the Regen of the loader valve works better.

 

[Leejohn]

If his loader self-leveling system is mechanical what would it have anything to do with his diverter valve? I think that adjuster is a relief and that hose should go to tank and he should have that hose that is hooked to the boom should go to the other bucket dump port.

 

[IceStationZebra]

That block probably has to do with the self-leveling system that all loaders in Australia are required to have. That would explain why both the lift and curl circuits go through it.

FYI - Some self-leveling valves work while raising and lowering, but most of them only work while raising. This is due mainly because of cost, but also because you are much less likely to hurt yourself if you accidentally dump the load. ISZ