Long 445 3pt problem

[Deezle]

Hello,

I recently bought a Long 445DT tractor.
it is a UTB Fiat type tractor.

It runs great drives great. it is a little "clunky" and not very smooth working but it works.

Here is my problem,

The 3 point hitch does not lift via the lever. It just floats to the top position. you can then push it back down if you put your body weight on it.

When I bought it the previous owner said the 3pt hitch needed to be bled out.
He never used it cause he used the machine for pulling logs.

I took the relief valve(s) out and checked to see they push in and are free of debris. I took the pilot valve out and checked that over. It was not stuck and was shiny as can be.

The fluid is milky but I want to figure out the problem first.

The remotes flow fluid but I don't have a pressure reading.
I took the front hyd cover off ( I guess it is called the hydraulic "head" ) and could see the piston. I moved the piston with a prybar ( it was kindof stuck ) it moved freely afterward.

I removed the filter screen to see if that helped. it did not.

The 3pt lever does not seem to do alot when I look at the linkage.

There is a plug/valve under the hydraulic "head" that you need to remove the head to take the valve out. What is the function of this?

Im at a loss here. Im almost at the point of selling the machine because I need a working 3pth to plow/plant in the spring.

Thank you in advance!

Kody

 

[sweettractors]

The pilot valve under your seat is notorious for sticking and when it does, the lift wont work. This is the valve between your legs under the seat and also under the remote crossover shaft. To test this valve, pull it up out of the hole, turn it 90 degrees and see if it freely drops to the bottom of the seat, rotate another 90 degrees and do the same thing. Continue this process until you make a complete circle. If it binds, put it on a arbor and put it in the drill press in sand it until in all 4 locations, it drops freely to the bottom. Change the milky fluid. Likely water came thru a bad rubber boot or condensation/sweating inside the housing. Ken Sweet

 

[whodat526]

and i always bleed them by removing the two bolts that hold the pressure line on to the lift top and let it run for a few minutes until the fluid flows out good

 

[Deezle]

hello,

the pilot valve is free. I will check again because it is easy to access.

I don't know if it needs to be bled because fluid does flow out of the line when you pull it off. Im pretty sure it is a constant flow aswell with not "pulsing".

Thanks,

 

[trac]

Pump; 3 pt. hitch is self bleeding, never had an issue. Does the controL lever that goes through the top cover (3 PT. housing) move freely. If so, move on. What Mr. Sweet said is most common. Most of the issues lie in that hydraulic pack. I'm thinking because of the milkey oil, pump flow and pressure could be to blame. It would be to your advantage to install 3000 lb pressure gauge in the remote. Normal reading was 2500 lb. Bet yours is quite a bit less. They do like to eat pumps, with milky oil.

 

[Deezle]

ok,

ill get the oil changed out,

But what is this valve in this diagram?

Valve #3

Hydraulic Head Valves

it seems to be under the pilot valve?

Thanks,

 

[trac]

# 3 is the Inlet valve,and drain valve combined. Must remove the whole control valve off top cover to remove these valves.

 

[Deezle]

ok,

now that you say that it does look a little different.

When I get some time Im just going to have to pull it apart again.

the pilot valve doesn't seem to stick like you were saying.

The 3pt lever moves freely.

Looking at the hyd head from the back side (what you can't see with it on the machine) over by the speed control the lift linkage hooks in there right? if that is the case something is wrong because it does not move when the lever is moved.

it does move when the 3pt arms are moved up and down, could that be what controls when the relief kicks in so it doesn't blow the piston out?

Does anybody have a diagram of the internal 3pt valve?

thanks,

 

[trac]

look at my post above

 

[trac]

That pic U showed if off a newer 2000 series tractor. I would look at external linkages. Nobody ever lubs them, and they have to be free to work properly.

 

[Deezle]

so the valve that adds fluid to the cylinder is in that front hydraulic head?

It seems my valve is just partially open to add fluid but not add enough pressure.

From what im gathering on information the Pilot valve is the valve im looking at that adds fluid?

 

[trac]

It responds when oil is needed in the cylinder when the position control lever is raised. The Romanian machining had a lot to be desired. Fiat did a far better job. In 2002, Long was still having trouble with these valve, and went to Fiat- Italy for a better one. Other thing, I forgot to mention is the draft control lever must be in the lower detent to work properly.

 

[Deezle]

alright that sounds like it has to be my problem.

I will check it out again and check the seat to be sure it is not damaged or clogged,

Thanks,

edit:

So untill I have time to test can somebody confirm my theory here?

If the hydraulic pump is bad but not dead it will pump a little fluid through the system with enough pressure to slighly work the valves and lift. but since it is such little pressure it is not enough to hold any weight on the lift?

Im going to get a pressure gauge and try it. at 2400 rpm it should be around 2200psi?

Thank you,

 

[AndrewInOz]

So long as the pump is not sucking air & has enough pressure to lift and lower the 3PL , then I would expect that the lift cylinder would be mostly free of air.

Assuming that, then even with a worn pump ( or engine stopped for that matter ), once raised, the lift still should hold considerable load.
If the 3PL collapses under those conditions, you'd be thinking that the lift seals or lift valve are leaking / open.

UTB piston seals can age badly I was told.

Re lift Valve : As I recall, 450 UTB series has a flaw in the draft mode select lever ( small round lever on the outside rear of the main lever quatrant ). This lever selects whether main lever works in draft or position mode. The flaw is that this lever must only be moved while the lift arms are raised. (There is a warning plaque on mudguard).
If u don't the mechanism gets out of wack permananently : ours faulted to an uncalibrated draft mode ie some lift like yours.

My first and only experience with this was many years ago, but involved removing the quadrant , springs ( one bent) , levers and reassembling in the right position. I didn't have a manual so was trial & error. Trivial job if you know how it should be. Should be Fiat manuals out there.
(BTW, That UTB came with our farm and goes well/ no trouble so we've kept and use regularly)

As I recall all the position/ top link draft control is all done in this external cam & link stuff & there is a control shaft going into the internal raise lower valve. You can get to and test operate that shaft without too much bother so as to bypass the draft+position mechanism.
*You would want to keep in a safe operator position to avoid crushing injury in case the hoist magically springs to life*

HTH's ( BTW, take it easy when tightening bolts on a UTB ! )

 

[Deezle]

external linkage is all free basically,

I ordered a gauge and am going to test the pressure.

i think the pump might be bad,

Thanks

 

[Deezle]

Well good but bad news,

got the gauge,

Pressure at the remote at idle is about 18-1900 at 2400rpm it is at 2500psi.

This has got me confused. I guess Im just going to have to take the whole assembly off and check it out.

I think there is a bad linkage somewhere. and it is opening just enough to flow a minute amount of fluid.

or a plugged line? I would think 2000+ psi would push any plugs out.

Im at a loss,

Thanks for the help so far,


::

Just read Andrews post again, I must not have picked that up about the draft control lever,

I will have to take that apart and look at it. That seems very likely, I have been able to get it to jolt a little bit by fiddleing with some of the different controls,

I will try this tomorrow,

 

[Deezle]

Ok,

got it figured out,


The "valve" behind the three point lever was not moving or moving very little,

I took it apart moved it manually and it worked,

but it seems the assembly was not in the correct position in the first place and I don't know how it goes back together,

does anyone have a diagram on that assembly (the draft control and three point lever )

Thank you for all the help it has been very appreciate,

Kody

 

[AndrewInOz]

Kody
Hope u have sorted by now. Could help if yr stuck. Unfortunately not possible to photo ours without pulling the quadrant off, but I can see in thru the gaps enough to describe if u ask specifics.
rgds
Andrew

 

[Deezle]

Hello Andrew,

I ordered a manual so hopefully that will tell me what I need, If not I will come to you for specifics,


Thanks Guys,

Kody

 

[Deezle]

Alright,

a little frustrated, ordered a $50 manual and it is of pretty poor quality. thats my first complaint, my second is that it don't even have what I need a picture of.

I can't figure the 3pt linkage out for the life of me, Either something is missing ( which I don't think is true ) or im just stupid. Ive spent hours trying it different ways.

I can work it manually by moving the "valve's lever" ( the one behind the quadrant ) and it works flawlessly that way. but as soon as I hook the linkage up it always binds, nothing looks bent. I think I understand how it works but I honestly can't figure it out.

Im very close to just building my own linkage. If it weren't for the draft control i prolly wouldn't have any problems right now.

if somebody could try to take pictures of theirs or make a quick sketch. something that give me a place to start from. Im just so frustrated with takeing it apart and puttin it back then it don't work.

Thanks fr the help so far,

Kody