Loss of Civility on the Forums
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Cliff_Johns
Elite Member
It may have been true at one time that other brands bore the brunt of criticisms, but It seems JD is the one to beat now and everyone jumps on (Oh my gosh they use plastic. Only an idiot would buy a plastic tractor or they don't even build their own machines, who would buy from a company that only engineers their tractors and lets another company manufacture it? and all JD dealers appear to be liars.) . Since I joined rather late (only January or so), I haven't noticed the berating of other machines. I think it's more historical. I've never actually seen a post that sugests people should buy JD because it's American and not buy Kubota (for instance) because it isn't [which I think is nonsense by the way for all sorts of reasons], but I see a lot of complaining about this kind of bashing and it confuses me. I just don't know the history so it comes across as a lot of protesting about a problem that doesn't seem to exist.
I recognise that I haven't read the history (and really, I guess I don't want to), so I don't know why people say some of the things they do. I just try to stay clear and let it blow over -- which I probably should have done in this case, but I felt the need to say that not everyone understands what the fuss is about.
There is one other element at play. I suspect one notices slights against their tractor more that slights against another tractor. It's just human nature. Everyone sees the world through different glasses.
I own a JD, so take this with a grain of salt. I am biased in ways I don't know about, I'm sure, but were it not for a few specific, non-quality related personal preferences, I woud have a Kubota now.
Cliff
I recognise that I haven't read the history (and really, I guess I don't want to), so I don't know why people say some of the things they do. I just try to stay clear and let it blow over -- which I probably should have done in this case, but I felt the need to say that not everyone understands what the fuss is about.
There is one other element at play. I suspect one notices slights against their tractor more that slights against another tractor. It's just human nature. Everyone sees the world through different glasses.
I own a JD, so take this with a grain of salt. I am biased in ways I don't know about, I'm sure, but were it not for a few specific, non-quality related personal preferences, I woud have a Kubota now.
Cliff
DK35vince
Super Member
I just don't like seeing a certain member who has for years been consistantly one of the worst bashers of other brands on this site complaining about his brand getting bashed.
riptides
Super Star Member
I blow by those comments all the time. But I have noticed more of the people trying to "protect" their interests.
Why is that? It just brings more attention to the comment itself?
Sometime I guess I get to thinking too much, this AM seems like one of those times....
-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Why is that? It just brings more attention to the comment itself?
Sometime I guess I get to thinking too much, this AM seems like one of those times....
-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Obviously I do too - I think I'll try the blow by approach more often. There was another post out there this morning where someone was asking "do I get tractor A or B". Don't you know someone posts "take a look at "C"... I was dying to respond that it wasn't even in the question, and is just another attempt at selling their brand. I didn't /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif - I'm just going to move right by.
Take Care - I hope it's clearer there this morning than it is here... it's been foggy and wet for a while now.
Take Care - I hope it's clearer there this morning than it is here... it's been foggy and wet for a while now.
I don't mind someone bringing a new brand into the topic, they obviously feel it's worthy of mention. The issue for me would be if they criticize the brands already involved without being based in fact & if done in a demeaning way. Your crazy if you buy brand x, it's a piece of crap, it's terrible, & on & on...
Well maybe it isn't that bad, but you get the idea.
Well maybe it isn't that bad, but you get the idea.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
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I agree that SOMETIMES bringing a new brand in is a worthwhile addition, but only if the new brand meets the original criteria. If someone wants a SUB-Cut with HST then I don't think it is appropriate to bring up a brand like Century-Branson because they don't have that class tractor. Or if someone says they did their homework and narrowed it down to 2 choices and asks for specifics about those 2, then bringing in another brand is not productive. But if someone says they are looking for a machine to do a specific set of things, what is the best machine? or if they say I think these 3 tractors will fit my needs, am I on track? then I would say it is reasonable to bring in lots of options.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DRIVES ME NUTS are the people who think that simply stating a fact is bashing. A month or two ago I was commenting on my own Kubota B2910 for having a big flat hood that made front visibility during FEL work difficult. . . but that I only noticed it because I also have a NH TC24D with a sloped and curved hood which has MUCH better visibility. Someone posted a message about a tractor for FEL work and I commented that as far as I was concerned the NH machines have the best forward visibility because of their aggressively sloping and curved hoods, combined with their curved loader arms. I caught all sorts of grief from people because I mentioned that JD has a wide & flat hood and square loader arms just like the Kubota and people who never drove anything other that what they own commented that they didn't have any visibility problems with their JD or thier Kubota. I was NOT bashing either brand, I was simply stating a fact. And the fact is that both JD & Kubota have long, wide, nearly flat hoods on several of the models and they use square loader arms . . . and compared to the current NH TC series with curved loader arms, there is no traditional tractor series that comes close to giving the forward visibility of a NH and the more visibility you have the easier/faster it is to do your job. YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT BY SAYING THAT I HAD JUST KILLED THEIR SACRED COW. Hey folks, pointing out strengths & weaknesses is not bashing if it is done objectively.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DRIVES ME NUTS are the people who think that simply stating a fact is bashing. A month or two ago I was commenting on my own Kubota B2910 for having a big flat hood that made front visibility during FEL work difficult. . . but that I only noticed it because I also have a NH TC24D with a sloped and curved hood which has MUCH better visibility. Someone posted a message about a tractor for FEL work and I commented that as far as I was concerned the NH machines have the best forward visibility because of their aggressively sloping and curved hoods, combined with their curved loader arms. I caught all sorts of grief from people because I mentioned that JD has a wide & flat hood and square loader arms just like the Kubota and people who never drove anything other that what they own commented that they didn't have any visibility problems with their JD or thier Kubota. I was NOT bashing either brand, I was simply stating a fact. And the fact is that both JD & Kubota have long, wide, nearly flat hoods on several of the models and they use square loader arms . . . and compared to the current NH TC series with curved loader arms, there is no traditional tractor series that comes close to giving the forward visibility of a NH and the more visibility you have the easier/faster it is to do your job. YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT BY SAYING THAT I HAD JUST KILLED THEIR SACRED COW. Hey folks, pointing out strengths & weaknesses is not bashing if it is done objectively.
It's funny how that thread went - I vaguely remember it. Now that Deere will have curved loader arms just watch the lust the develops for that style of machine /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. To me it's just a tool, and if the curves and such improve functionality then i guess it's a better tool huh /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif.
Bob_Skurka
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( It's funny how that thread went - I vaguely remember it. Now that Deere will have curved loader arms just watch the lust the develops for that style of machine /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. To me it's just a tool, and if the curves and such improve functionality then i guess it's a better tool huh /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif. )</font>
I think the reality is that all tool manufacturers follow each other and copy the best parts of each others designs. Look at how battery power tools evolved from the original joke of a powered screwdriver to the current crop of cordless drill drivers & circular saws! Such is the evolution of all improvements.
The curved loader arms being added by John Deere are bound to be copied by several brands, all of which are simply following New Holland. But to get the same functionality as NH then JD and everyone else will also have to copy the curved sloping hood design too. Now if you really want to talk about a machine that does a great job as with a FEL, then we sould bring up Power Trac! Not that I think they are great for blade work or tilling the garden, but for FEL work they can't be beat (wait, was I just bashing all the other brands or did I just point out a simple fact???)
I think the reality is that all tool manufacturers follow each other and copy the best parts of each others designs. Look at how battery power tools evolved from the original joke of a powered screwdriver to the current crop of cordless drill drivers & circular saws! Such is the evolution of all improvements.
The curved loader arms being added by John Deere are bound to be copied by several brands, all of which are simply following New Holland. But to get the same functionality as NH then JD and everyone else will also have to copy the curved sloping hood design too. Now if you really want to talk about a machine that does a great job as with a FEL, then we sould bring up Power Trac! Not that I think they are great for blade work or tilling the garden, but for FEL work they can't be beat (wait, was I just bashing all the other brands or did I just point out a simple fact???)
MossRoad
Super Moderator
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- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
Some folks here have way, way more experience than 2/3 of the members combined. Some, like me, have very little experience. After you've been here for a while, you find out just what experience means and how valuable it is. When someone that has years and years of real world experience steps up and says "This is why I choose brand X over brand Y or Z" I value that opinion. I listen. It's called learning from a teacher. I've also seen these teachers become students and learn a thing or two. Some of them are very brand loyal because that brand has never let them down. They make money by using that brand. They use them every day for years and years and it never ever lets them down. So, when asked, they'll tell you, "This is the brand I use and here's why". And if you ask them to compare it to another brand, they will, point by point, compare it to that other brand. To some, it seems like an attack. To me, it seems like honest critique based on their experiences and knowledge. There's that famous lyric, "Don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to." That applies to tractors, as well. Don't take things like tractor comparison so personally. If you feel someone is "bashing" another brand with inaccurate information, find the correct information and post it. If a person is just blowing smoke out their exhaust stack, pass over the temptation to reply and let the post stand for what it is. Others will see it and make their own opinions.
Best wishes to all TBNers.
DG. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Best wishes to all TBNers.
DG. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Ok Bob - I've had enough of your bashing! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I just got my grubby little hands on the brochure for the new Deere large chassis CUTs. The hood is more sloped, and the front end is quite different looking from the older models. With that said I didn't feel my "must have it" factor raised at all. I've said before, regardless of brand, these are awesome tools. I know folks will be pleased overall with the new series - but it isn't (IMHO) a quantum leap over whats already out there. The dealer I talked to also felt that there were improvements in some areas, but a few cost cutting moves as well. I'll be curious to see how the new model is received by the market.
Take Care,
I just got my grubby little hands on the brochure for the new Deere large chassis CUTs. The hood is more sloped, and the front end is quite different looking from the older models. With that said I didn't feel my "must have it" factor raised at all. I've said before, regardless of brand, these are awesome tools. I know folks will be pleased overall with the new series - but it isn't (IMHO) a quantum leap over whats already out there. The dealer I talked to also felt that there were improvements in some areas, but a few cost cutting moves as well. I'll be curious to see how the new model is received by the market.
Take Care,
JayC
Veteran Member
I've noticed a civility issue, too over the past months. The thread I remember best is the <font color="orange"> orange </font> battle! lol That made for some... interesting reading. I probably have the least experience on the board when it comes to tractors - save for lawn tractors and the old one my grandfather built many years ago. It is thanks to this board I have learned so much about these tractors. I try to stay objective about all brands and watch what I say. I try to make some suggestions using all the info I learned here on the boards. I don't ever try to bash a brand. If I don't particularly care for a brand that someone is considering, I will not post saying why is don't care for it. I will just move on. If a person buys the brand and they like it then I wish them the very best. When I see a "battle of the brands" type thread, I think of the old saying "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." Sometimes, I think people like to stir the pot just to see how fast they can get things swirling.
ducati996
Banned
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Obviously I do too - I think I'll try the blow by approach more often. There was another post out there this morning where someone was asking "do I get tractor A or B". Don't you know someone posts "take a look at "C"... I was dying to respond that it wasn't even in the question, and is just another attempt at selling their brand. I didn't /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif - I'm just going to move right by.
)</font>
SteveH_CT,
I say its good if another brand is mentioned as a suggestion...I have done it recently myself -only because I can offer insight into the different brands, and spell out how they are different from each other. It helps to open the buyers field of choices..
I never hurts when the info is true and accurate and the buyer is well in tune to what each mfg offers....
Dont you agree?
Duc
)</font>
SteveH_CT,
I say its good if another brand is mentioned as a suggestion...I have done it recently myself -only because I can offer insight into the different brands, and spell out how they are different from each other. It helps to open the buyers field of choices..
I never hurts when the info is true and accurate and the buyer is well in tune to what each mfg offers....
Dont you agree?
Duc
sweettractors
Advertiser
<font color="red"> Can we raise the bar and start having grown up conversations again about tractors and their uses? </font>
Steve, I really think that most of the Posters actually believe what they post. We know everyone is not always 100% right or always dead wrong. All discussion is good. The worst post you have seen on TBN has probably educatuted you in some way about the product or the poster. Take it all with a grain of salt and remember that most of what you see is not posted with malice--Ken Sweet
Sweet Farm Equipment LLC *New and Refurbished Tractors and Equipment for 27 Years*
Steve, I really think that most of the Posters actually believe what they post. We know everyone is not always 100% right or always dead wrong. All discussion is good. The worst post you have seen on TBN has probably educatuted you in some way about the product or the poster. Take it all with a grain of salt and remember that most of what you see is not posted with malice--Ken Sweet
Sweet Farm Equipment LLC *New and Refurbished Tractors and Equipment for 27 Years*
Henro
Super Member
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- Few miles north of Pgh, PA
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- Kubota B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini EX
You know I think one problem is with where each of us find our heads most of the time...
I used to work in steel mill manufacturing environment. People told it like it was. Very direct.
My kids work in an office environment. Sometimes they get upset when I tell it like it is... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Seems like if something is red, for them you should say it is pink...or slightly red...or tending to be red...
"Dad, did you have to say it was red???" "It would have been better to say it was tending to be red, sort of red, kind a red...but to say it was red when it was red, that is uncalled for..."
Oh well, I said it was red because it was red. You know it was red...so why is it a big deal to say it was red... Sorry but it is very difficult for me to NOT say something is red when it is red...
Sometimes we need to take into consideration where our heads our when we take offense to another's words...just like we should be sensitive to what another might read into ours.
It sure is hard for me not to say red when I see red though!
Guess I'll have to go to counseling or something... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I used to work in steel mill manufacturing environment. People told it like it was. Very direct.
My kids work in an office environment. Sometimes they get upset when I tell it like it is... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Seems like if something is red, for them you should say it is pink...or slightly red...or tending to be red...
"Dad, did you have to say it was red???" "It would have been better to say it was tending to be red, sort of red, kind a red...but to say it was red when it was red, that is uncalled for..."
Oh well, I said it was red because it was red. You know it was red...so why is it a big deal to say it was red... Sorry but it is very difficult for me to NOT say something is red when it is red...
Sometimes we need to take into consideration where our heads our when we take offense to another's words...just like we should be sensitive to what another might read into ours.
It sure is hard for me not to say red when I see red though!
Guess I'll have to go to counseling or something... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
California
Super Star Member
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- Yanmar YM240 Yanmar YM186D
"Be neither excessively annoying, nor excessively annoyed".
I first saw that nearly 20 years ago when I started online communication on Fidonet.
In other words there is nothing you can do about some posters, but ignoring them while maintaining your good humor will improve your own online experience.
That advice has served me well.
I first saw that nearly 20 years ago when I started online communication on Fidonet.
In other words there is nothing you can do about some posters, but ignoring them while maintaining your good humor will improve your own online experience.
That advice has served me well.
Junkman
Super Member
I am seeing red!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif Bad day...... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I absolutely agree if someone posts a general non-brand specific question. The post I referred to was in a brand specific section, and mentioned two specific models within the brand. At that point I you think should comment on the models mentioned... especially if you have knowledge and/or experience with the models questioned.
Let me phrase it this way /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I don't go down to the NH or Kioti sections trying to talk folks into a Deere... I figure if they got it down to a model or two then they've looked and have a good idea what they like. The fact is I don't try talking anyone into a Deere unless they've already decided thats what they want.
Either way it's no biggie - because as has been said, it's generally folks just trying to offer help and opinions.
Let me phrase it this way /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I don't go down to the NH or Kioti sections trying to talk folks into a Deere... I figure if they got it down to a model or two then they've looked and have a good idea what they like. The fact is I don't try talking anyone into a Deere unless they've already decided thats what they want.
Either way it's no biggie - because as has been said, it's generally folks just trying to offer help and opinions.
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