MessickFarmEqu
Super Member
Hua... yea, but I've never priced against them and could not have told you they sold Mahindara. They where mainly a hustler dealer.
Mahindra Max 28XL or Kubota B2920?
- Thread starter Green Guy
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Hua... yea, but I've never priced against them and could not have told you they sold Mahindara. They where mainly a hustler dealer.
LD1
Epic Contributor
madmax12
Veteran Member
What is that supposed to help with
I think Mahindra advertises its weight/dimensions as a better design. You expressed shock at Kootch88's ability to lift 1000lbs (with a 900lbs rated loader), wanting to know what he used for ballast.
Does the video not begin to address this point? My guess is every tractor in the video could lift that pallet, easily...with Ballast. Mahindra is designing (I don't know how) more weight into the tractors, advertising them as stronger and safer.
I have owned tractors for... all of two weeks. The only tractor I've ever owned (or operated for more than 10 minutes) is the Max28XL. I've operated other heavy equipment, but tractors are new to me.
Just experimenting, with my dealer mounted forks (350lbs tare, Kodiak 2500lb rated), I lifted a 2x2x2 boulder out of the ground it's been sitting in for decades, and was able to lift that to full lifting height, and (after lowering the loader for safety) carried that boulder a couple hundred yards around the property.
My loader is rated for 1400lbs lift. How much do you think it lifted? What does a 2x2x2 boulder weigh?
My ballast was my 5' finish mower... mahindra. Its the one on northern tools, too.
I think the video addresses one of your questions perfectly.
Maybe you should watch it again.
VitaBene
Silver Member
I have a hard time believing a motor and transmission would be less than 3K?
LD1
Epic Contributor
I am not about to get into a pi$$ing match with someone who has only had a tractor for two weeks. Dont take that the wrong way either. But I will try to explain my points based on your last post.
They call the weight of their tractor a "better" design. I call it an older design that is useless. Okay, so you dont need ballast to lift to max. Others do. But what about the times when you dont want or need a tractor that weighs 2x's more???
And yes, I am shocked that he lifted 1000lbs with only a 1800lb tractor. He surly had ballast. I am not doubting the loader is as strong as they say. It uses the same diameter cylinders as my larger tractor. My point was that I am already 800lbs heavier, and I need ALOT of ballast to even begin to think about lifting that kind of weight. So he must have had ALOT + 800lbs ballast:laughing:
No. THAT particular mahindra in that video is a 6000lb tractor. The kubota is ~3500lbs. THATS the difference in the video. My point about the max is that it isnt like the typical mahindra that outweighs everybody by almost double. So that video isnt accurate when comparing like I am in this thread. I am comparing MY 2600lb tractor to the 1800lb MAX. So infact it is just the opposite as the video shows for MY point of comparison.
Again I am not doubting that your loader will lift 1400lbs. Because it does use the dame diameter cylinders as mine. But YOUR tractor is already 800lbs lighter than mine. I have lifted MAX weight before. And it takes ALOT of ballast. I could NOT imagine doing that with an 800lb lighter tractor. Because the amount of ballast required would probabally put a good hurting on the 3PH.
I'd venture a guess at 900-1000lbs for that boulder. Also, since this is the internet, it is kinda an unspoken rule that : No pictures....It didnt happen:laughing:
The video does not address my question at all. And BTW, I have seen that video no less than a dozen times. Mahindra "fans" like to post it every chance they get. And as you even said, the other tractors would lift it, WITH BALLAST. So I guess it is up to the consumer to decide what is a better design:
1. Build a tractor overly heavy so no ballast is required?
or
2. Give the operator the option to lighten up the tractor if needed but still be able to lift the full amount with a little ballast?
Dont take this post the wrong way. I have nothing against the max and I am sure it is a great tractor. My point is mearly that the mahindra weighs 800# less than my tractor and claims to be able to lift more. Well......I am not doubting that it "can" lift more. But from my experience (again with an 800# heavier machine) that lifting those weights takes serious ballast. Not somthing I would want to do starting out with a 800# lighter machine:confused2:
madmax12
Veteran Member
LD1,
Well said. I'll work on pics. It did happen.
The only thought I have, fwiw, is leverage. Is it possible that the loader arms, etc are shorter on the mahindras? Or longer on the competitors? Leverage makes a big difference. Smaller reach with the same size cylinders, would explain a lot.
Thank you for your detailed, polite, reply. You addressed every aspect, perfectly.
And u r right... If I want to mow with my heavy mahindra (which I do), how would I lighten it up? I can't. However, it hasn't been a problem mowing... And that's with industrial tires. With turf tires, I imagine it would be even better.
Well said. I'll work on pics. It did happen.
The only thought I have, fwiw, is leverage. Is it possible that the loader arms, etc are shorter on the mahindras? Or longer on the competitors? Leverage makes a big difference. Smaller reach with the same size cylinders, would explain a lot.
Thank you for your detailed, polite, reply. You addressed every aspect, perfectly.
And u r right... If I want to mow with my heavy mahindra (which I do), how would I lighten it up? I can't. However, it hasn't been a problem mowing... And that's with industrial tires. With turf tires, I imagine it would be even better.
LD1
Epic Contributor
Yes, I though about the leverage too. And the mahindra MAX doesnt lift as high (IIRC) as my loader. But still....comparing MY L3400 to a MAX28 (which I know isnt apples to apples), it would take ALOT of leverage to over come a 33% weight difference in the machines.
And BTW, your mahindra isnt really heavy. Comparing the Max to a kubota-B to a Deere 20-series, there is only a few hundred pounds difference.
The real differences in weights are in the 30-60HP range. If it was nothing but an ALL AG or Tillage tractor, then sure, the more weight the better. But most tractors in the 30-60 HP range are considered "utility" tractors that do ALOT of things. And for me, a tractor that weight 2x's more would really limit its ability in less than ideal conditions.
DavesTractor
Elite Member
Roy,
Thanks for the input, and that explains it. Mahindra had a couple models back then that still used a separate hydraulic resevoir under the seat instead of a combined tank (with the transmission), so they only had a couple of gallons of oil and no oil cooler. With a combined system, we have gallons and gallons of oil. So that system was not designed for that duty cycle, frankly I think those older models were designed for mostly just three-point use and it is hard to heat the oil much just lifting the three-point. And typical small ag loader use won't heat the oil much either. So the heat toasted the pump, which makes sense.
All Mahindra models since about 2008 have combined sumps, so I think we would be good to go if the same tests were performed today.
madmax12
Veteran Member
LD1,
I had never driven a tractor, before this April. I learned how to drive one, from dealers. My lack of experience, made looking at used, unrealistic. Used wasn't going to save me much, and going new, I got the 5 year warranty. That doesn't mean there won't be issues, but its less concerning, to me, as a newcomer.
I also don't think I could have purchased the capabilities of this machine, in this size, before March 2012. Not even from Mahindra. While the base tractor is mostly the same (I think), the loader was changed...from last years model. So was the backhoe (but I didn't get one, yet).
The reason I chose this model, was its specs and comfort. The J series LS was way less money, but no where near as capable, and very uncomfortable... for both myself and my wife. The LS G series was more tractor for same money, but that's because it is a larger size category... And bigger was not going to help me.
The other brands were more money, and not as capable.
If I had a big farm... Where size was not an issue, then the LS tractors would be another brand I would look at.
I'm not drinking Mahindra koolaid... It's just what my "research" led me to. All tractor brands have great models. All tractor brands occasionally have problems.
I had never driven a tractor, before this April. I learned how to drive one, from dealers. My lack of experience, made looking at used, unrealistic. Used wasn't going to save me much, and going new, I got the 5 year warranty. That doesn't mean there won't be issues, but its less concerning, to me, as a newcomer.
I also don't think I could have purchased the capabilities of this machine, in this size, before March 2012. Not even from Mahindra. While the base tractor is mostly the same (I think), the loader was changed...from last years model. So was the backhoe (but I didn't get one, yet).
The reason I chose this model, was its specs and comfort. The J series LS was way less money, but no where near as capable, and very uncomfortable... for both myself and my wife. The LS G series was more tractor for same money, but that's because it is a larger size category... And bigger was not going to help me.
The other brands were more money, and not as capable.
If I had a big farm... Where size was not an issue, then the LS tractors would be another brand I would look at.
I'm not drinking Mahindra koolaid... It's just what my "research" led me to. All tractor brands have great models. All tractor brands occasionally have problems.
DavesTractor
Elite Member
From the front edge of the bucket to the center line of the front axle is 46" on a Max22/25. It would be interesting to know the measurement on your Kubota. Of course a longer measurement gives higher lift, so there is a trade off. I think it is cool that you have a pressure gauge in your system. Neat feature.
Your comment on the Mahindra only being a few hundred pounds heavier? Well a few hundred pounds is a bunch percentage wise on a SCUT or small CUT. We aren't talking about full size ag tractors where one weighs 8500 and the other weighs 8900.
As always, I appreciate your posts.
DavesTractor
Elite Member
I actually went over all of this for you more than once in the open forum, but to save you the time of looking it up, the "narrow sliver" is the 85HP and lower range. That covers the vast majority of tractors sold in the USA, not a narrow sliver.
The last numbers I had for the USA market was 2010, and for ALL HP the total was roughly 150,000 tractors. 2010 wasn't a banner year for the lower HP tractors, but I doubt the USA market is up to 250,000 units. We aren't counting riding lawn mowers.
Mahindra built over 200,000 tractors in 2010. 2011 was better, and we are up again in 2012. Far and away most were built by Mahindra themselves. In the USA, there is a big market for smaller tractors, so a lot of the USA market is Mitsubishi built product.
I can probably do some research and be a little more specific about 2011 total market, Mahindras exact production for FY 2011, etc. But in return, I'd like Kubota's exact production for the same time period. Just a fair exchange of information if you want to discuss this further.
As a large and well respected Kubota dealer, you should have access to such information. We are just a single store operation in rural northern California, but an email to the right person puts those numbers at my fingertips and I'd be glad to discuss this further.
Neil, whenever we get into this friendly debate, every 6 months or so, I like to remind people that I have the utmost respect and admiration fror Kubota. They have a good product and a good dealer base and I have no issues with Kubota. So neither you or any Kubota owners should take my enthusiasm for Mahindra in any was a a disparagement towards Kubota. I am just stating the facts.
LD1
Epic Contributor
I am not at home right now, but I will measure the cutting edge-axle CL when I get home.
I know a few hundred #'s on a small machine matters. But even if you figure percentage wise, the Max isnt like most other mahindra models. If a mahindra weighs 5000lbs, most others are in the 3k range. Thats MUCH more of a difference than a 1600lb vs 1800lb tractor when we are talking about ballasting for a FEL. Heck, you could have 200lbs difference just in who is driving the tractor:laughing:
Back to the loader comparisons....And this is just informative, NOT argumentative:
Max 28 with a 1.77" x 15" cylinder will lift to 82.7" and go to 2.6" below grade. Total range of travel of 85.3" with a 15" stroke cylinder. That is a 5.68:1 ratio.
IE: bucket raises 5.68" for every 1" of stroke.
L3400 with a 1.77" x 21.7" (IIRC) cylinder will lift to 95.3" and a depth of 5.9". Total of 101.2". Thats a ratio of 4.66:1
So it seems that the kubota would have a slight mechanical advantage over the mahindra using the same sized (diameter) cylinder if I am recalling the stroke length correctly on the kubota. The kubota loader and frame is also heavier by about 300# so that would take away a bit of the advantage too.
What does the mahindra run for PSI do you know?? I think the kubota is only 2300-2400.
DavesTractor
Elite Member
Hey, now you are getting personal! :laughing: I am good ballast, and that is to make my tractor safer. Now to have some ice cream.
Mahindra's PSI is similar, right in that range.
oldnslo
Super Member
Problem with using us for ballast is that we sit to high and this makes them top heavy
Bring on the ice cream:thumbsup:
s219
Super Member
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A 2x2x2 cube of stone would weight about 950#. A sphere that fits in the same cube would be about 500#.
DavesTractor
Elite Member
Here is a video that one of our guys quickly put together. It shows a Max 25 TLB, the little brother to the Max 28XL TLB lifting 900# and breaking out 1700# before it lifted the back of our little 3500# forklift. Notice the back of the Max25 did not lift off the ground with 1700# hanging from the bucket. No doubt it was getting light, but it was still stable.
So it would be a grunt, and I wouldn't really recommend it, but I suspect this little guy could move the propane tank mentioned earlier in this thread.
I think having the loader up fairly tight to the tractor helps keep the tractor stable even with maximum lift. Had we not installed the backhoe, we would have absolutley needed ballast of some sort, but not a rediculous amount.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqmmfYgTFlU"]Mahindra Max 25 lifts the back of a forklift! - YouTube[/ame]
So it would be a grunt, and I wouldn't really recommend it, but I suspect this little guy could move the propane tank mentioned earlier in this thread.
I think having the loader up fairly tight to the tractor helps keep the tractor stable even with maximum lift. Had we not installed the backhoe, we would have absolutley needed ballast of some sort, but not a rediculous amount.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqmmfYgTFlU"]Mahindra Max 25 lifts the back of a forklift! - YouTube[/ame]
XSKIER
Platinum Member
Dave, that's AWESOME!
Now shoot a video of the MAX28XL scooping up that fork truck, and then running with it! All compliments aside, I don't think any L3800s or 3038Es would accomplish that task! Congrats on a Superior Compact Utility Tractor!
Now shoot a video of the MAX28XL scooping up that fork truck, and then running with it! All compliments aside, I don't think any L3800s or 3038Es would accomplish that task! Congrats on a Superior Compact Utility Tractor!
DavesTractor
Elite Member
That is what Scut means?
I like it!It didn't surprise me that it lifted 1700# using the curl, but it did surprise me that the rear tires on the Max 25 stayed firmly on the ground with only the backhoe for counterweight.
LD1
Epic Contributor
Nice Vid.....BUT.....It may just be an optical illusion, but I could swear that if you pause theat video @ 1:56 and again @ 2:11 it looks like that lift cylinder is bowing:confused2:
In all of this rambling though, I totally forgot about curl force. I have been talking (and I guess we may not have been on the same page) about LIFT ONLY. When I lifted my propane tank (~1400-1500lbs), it was LIFT only. Curl was NOT used. And I was rigged @ the cutting edge. So Yes, that max probabally would have lifted it but ONLY with curl.
This has now got me wondering how much I would actually be able to lift if using curl function as well. Because I never do that when lifting something to move because that adds WAY more stress on the lift circuit. In that vid, if you went into relief @ 900lbs lift, and you almost doubled that with the curl, that means them cylinders and hoses are seeing almost double relief pressure as well :EEK:
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