Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems

   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #21  
Greenmojo,

We use these systems a lot in the military. They work well, but can have issues. The main problem I see with them is service availability. Do you have someone nearby that is willing to work on it if you have issues? There are SOOOO many different brands - some of which are easier to get parts for vs. others. Only other issue I have seen with them is clogged or improperly installed condensation pipes that cause the unit to drip water. My understanding is that Mitsu makes some of the best mini-splits....
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems
  • Thread Starter
#22  
Greenmojo,

We use these systems a lot in the military. They work well, but can have issues. The main problem I see with them is service availability. Do you have someone nearby that is willing to work on it if you have issues? There are SOOOO many different brands - some of which are easier to get parts for vs. others. Only other issue I have seen with them is clogged or improperly installed condensation pipes that cause the unit to drip water. My understanding is that Mitsu makes some of the best mini-splits....

Cool!

Very good points... I have not even looked into any local places to see if they service or repair them. For installation in my temporary office, I bought a vacuum pump and gauges to do the install myself, but that is as far as my HVAC skills go.

The inspector commented on the condensation lines, and said that was their only real concern, that they are properly draining to prevent water from backing up in the house.

~Moses
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #23  
If it's a wall mount on an exterior wall, you're fine with a gravity drain. Safety float switchs and mini condensate pumps are readily avialble for mini split systems (in my neck of the woods, they're code anyways).

There are about 90 different brands of mini splits sold in the US. Not one is manufacturered in the US. If you going to spend the money, get a Japanese brand (most expensive) who has been in the US for some time now and not someone jumping on the bandwagon who has a national warehouse in Floriday or California.
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #24  
One particular 3 ton multi zone mini split unit at 5 degrees outside air temp can produce over 45k of heat.

I am not sure your numbers are correct, 3 ton = 36,000 BTU, so producing 45,000 seems unlikely. Also as it gets colder the capacity of a heat pump goes down, due to a reduced temperature differential. Most heat pumps are name-plate rated at 45 deg F.

paul
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems
  • Thread Starter
#25  
If it's a wall mount on an exterior wall, you're fine with a gravity drain. Safety float switchs and mini condensate pumps are readily avialble for mini split systems (in my neck of the woods, they're code anyways).

There are about 90 different brands of mini splits sold in the US. Not one is manufacturered in the US. If you going to spend the money, get a Japanese brand (most expensive) who has been in the US for some time now and not someone jumping on the bandwagon who has a national warehouse in Floriday or California.

Funny that you say that. I bought the Pioneer in the temp office from a warehouse in FL.

I am hoping that Mitsubishi is the bigger name brand that will work. I've heard nothing but great about them, and they seem to be marketing the most in an American style (website, commercials, home depot, etc).

~Moses
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #26  
I've lived in Japan since '81, house there don't come with any heat/air, so the split systems are all we used. These were invented in Japan. Heat is the weakness just like traditional heat pumps. We used kerosene clean air (intake/exhaust gases to outside) heaters and gas heaters to supplement our heat. The Fujitsu, Sharp, Mitsubishi, Daikin, Toshiba, National (Panasonic here), units we had didn't heat good enough. These are all Japanese makers, the only kind I'd have. Our Sharp was a real workhorse! That thing lasted over 20 years! They were all good brands. Easy to install yourself. I've moved them many times in Japan myself. Had to drill holes up high on walls and make sure house had an outlet nearby the unit. Make sure condensate tray is sloped properly and kept clean. I used a coil cleaning spray annually to clean the coil on inside wall unit. Better make sure you can get parts for your brand in your area. Like karaoke, Hello Kitty, manga, sushi, I have been surprised that these units have come to America! Now if we could just learn to remove our filthy shoes before we enter a house!
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #27  
The minispilts are great technology. I installed a dual zone Mr Slim at our ranch cabin and we are very impressed with the efficiency and quite operation.

If I build a new home I plan to look very closely at them. Be warned that many installers charge a small fortune to put them in. I do not know why as they are easy to install.

They come pre-filled with refrigerant. If you see how they install one you can buy vaccum pump for hundred or so USD and do it by yourself. In fact I would do a better job then the pros would. At least those who installed my split units. I need one large one for the shop sp it will be DIY.
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems
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#28  
They come pre-filled with refrigerant. If you see how they install one you can buy vaccum pump for hundred or so USD and do it by yourself. In fact I would do a better job then the pros would. At least those who installed my split units. I need one large one for the shop sp it will be DIY.

That's what I did for the Pioneer unit, I picked up a pump and gauges. Was super simple.

~Moses
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #29  
Although I've never actually had one of those mini splits. I like them. Seems like a better alternative to window acs and much more secure than having a window unit mounted in the window. Though you'd have to secure the ac itself due to theft.

You have to secure everything now. When my window ac's give up then I might look into purchasing one of those mini splits.
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #30  
I don't know much about geothermal. I have plenty of land to do a shallow system over a large area, but I don't know enough about it to know how I would use it.
~Moses

Geothermal works great especially paired with floor heating but at a cost. For the same money you can have all rooms heated/AC by minisplits and PV system to power it all up.
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #31  
Heat is the weakness just like traditional heat pumps.

I have a customer that can heat his add on bedroom at 72 degrees when it's 5 below outside with no additional heat source other than his mini split.

Heat is not the weakness if you know what model youre looking for when it comes to mini splits. The issue then becomes costs and ensuring that the installer knows what the end users expectations are of the unit. As mentioned, people for some reason are stuck on SEER rating only when it comes to mini splits.
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #32  
I am not sure your numbers are correct, 3 ton = 36,000 BTU, so producing 45,000 seems unlikely. Also as it gets colder the capacity of a heat pump goes down, due to a reduced temperature differential. Most heat pumps are name-plate rated at 45 deg F.

paul

My numbers are not incorrect. 36,000 BTU is at 50 - 60 hertz and that's what the unit is rated for. Some units "specialize" in heating capacity that can operated down to -15 degrees and still give you 90% rated capacity. These unit run even a higher heating capacity at 17 degrees and yet even higher at 47 degree (outside air temp). Part of the problem is online retailers in general have no clue what they're selling and sell what peopel want, and forget the end user asking questions at a box store LOL

Just like cooling for example (as far as ratings and capacity). One manufacturer, two different models. Model A is rated down to 24 degrees. Model B is rated down to 14 degrees. Model A cost 70% more than model B. Guess who everyone buys? Model B of course. The issue is people don't look at the submittal information and understand that with some optional ad on's (yet more money), model A will operate down to 0 degrees. People still say "so what, it still costs way too much". I understand that. But also understand that with model B, looking at the performance chart, at 24 degrees outside air temp, a 2 ton AC unit may only give you 12,000 BTU's of cooling because of the capacity loss. Model A on the other hand, on a two ton unit, will give you 24,000 BTU's of cooling at 5 degree outside air temp. For most residential applications, no one really cares. However, when you're dealing with a IT server room or a room where cooling is critical year round, the capacity loss on a cheaper unit at lower temps can kill you and your equipment (all temps are fahrenheit of course here) .

In general, heating is actually the primary concern when it comes to mini splits and residential applications (but people don't think about that until afte the fact when the unit can't keep up with the heating demand when it's 20 degrees outside), and cooling can be the primary concern (if there is one) when it comes to commercial applications (cooling year round, even when it gets cold outside).

Part of the issue is training, the other issue cost. Contractors and homeowners want to jump on the bandwagon because they hear so many great things about mini splits, but when it comes to buying time, if someone can buy a 22 SEER system for less money than a 20 SEER system, it seems like a no brainer to buy the 22 SEER system.

Keep in mind, with so many different lines being sold, the issue becomes IMO that the cheaper the unit you buy, the greater the odds that in 5 years you won't be able to find any parts for it if you need one. That said, I still remember in 1999 waiting 4 months for a compressor for a mini split unit literally coming from a slow boat from Japan. Then it had to hit California, then ship east. With Korean and Chinese lines? I wouldn't touch them with a 10' pole lol (thing is, back in 99, you didn't have Korean or Chniese lines being sold in America).

Please at least stick to buying Japanese (that said, ironically enough, units manufacturered in Japan, but some parts are made in Korea, go figure LOL).
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #33  
Thanks, Moses. I'll check 'um out.
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #34  
Geothermal works great especially paired with floor heating but at a cost. For the same money you can have all rooms heated/AC by minisplits and PV system to power it all up.

If geothermal and mini splits were the same install cost, I'd go with geothermal in a heartbeat just due to service related issues and parts availaiblity for the next 20 years.
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #35  
They come pre-filled with refrigerant. If you see how they install one you can buy vaccum pump for hundred or so USD and do it by yourself. In fact I would do a better job then the pros would. At least those who installed my split units. I need one large one for the shop sp it will be DIY.


Yes, that is exactly what I did. I installed everything and had the AC company come out to pump it down and release the Puron. Having a certified tech do the line evac/fill/test insured that the factory warranty would be accepted by Mitsubishi (tech signed the warranty card). The AC guy offered to hire me. He said my install was better work than the last couple of guys he hired.
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #36  
I'm super interested in what vacuum pump and gages you do-it-yourself guys used.
I figured I'd need to hire someone to do that part.

I'm looking at a 4-zone system. Doing it ALL myself certainly takes a grand or more out of the cost for a full install. At least a few hundred if a pro just did the final vacuum-down.

Is there somewhere with instructions or anything? What level of vacuum do you have to hit, etc.....?
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems
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#37  
I'm super interested in what vacuum pump and gages you do-it-yourself guys used.
I figured I'd need to hire someone to do that part.

I'm looking at a 4-zone system. Doing it ALL myself certainly takes a grand or more out of the cost for a full install. At least a few hundred if a pro just did the final vacuum-down.

Is there somewhere with instructions or anything? What level of vacuum do you have to hit, etc.....?

$165.00 -- Yellow Jacket 49967 Titan 4-Valve Test and Charging Manifold degrees F, psi Scale, R-22/404A/410A Refrigerant, Red/Blue Gauges
Yellow Jacket 49967 Titan 4-Valve Test and Charging Manifold degrees F, psi Scale, R-22/404A/410A Refrigerant, Red/Blue Gauges: Industrial Pressure Gauges: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

$186 -- Robinair (15500) VacuMaster Economy Vacuum Pump - 2-Stage, 5 CFM
Amazon.com: Robinair (15500) VacuMaster Economy Vacuum Pump - 2-Stage, 5 CFM: Automotive

There are less expensive options of course, but I figured since I will have about 8 or 9 mini-splits across the property, it would be convenient to have the tools to deal with anything I might need to.

~Moses
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems
  • Thread Starter
#38  
Yes, that is exactly what I did. I installed everything and had the AC company come out to pump it down and release the Puron. Having a certified tech do the line evac/fill/test insured that the factory warranty would be accepted by Mitsubishi (tech signed the warranty card). The AC guy offered to hire me. He said my install was better work than the last couple of guys he hired.

That signature would be worth it.... or now I have to find time to goto to HVAC school. ;-)

~Moses
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #39  
So i was quietly researching this in the background. This weekend my wife stumbled on minisplits being much much (1/2 or 1/3 as much) cheaper than we had originally GUESStimated. So now it's on like donkey kong. I'd be doing the install myself.

I'm looking at a Pioneer 4-zone system. I notice a couple others with Pioneers in this thread and they seem happy. I'm looking at cassettes because they offer mounting flexibility with the shortest piping and they include a condensate drain (none of mine would be going on exterior walls). Thoughts?

My wife found these guys 48000 BTU Quad Zone Ductless Mini Split 12000 x 4 Ceiling Cassette
Thoughts on them?

So then, re-reading this thread I re-noticed the chiller. Pending pricing, a chiller sounds PERFECT for me. I plumbed my entire hydronic heating system with heat storage tank. This is easy and doesn't require me to find an HVAC guy that works for cases of beer or buy vacuum stuff for a few benjamins as well as voiding the warranty. Am I missing something with the chillers? Their version of the cassette isn't quite as nice, as it hangs down below the ceiling, but I'll get over it.... This is the site that was mentioned previously Small Heat Pump Chiller Air Conditioners | Modular Mini-Split Ductless Home & Server Room Chillers | Chiltrix Inc.

I understand that getting non-name-brand stuff is some risk for parts or whatever at a later date. That's just supposition though, and isn't worth a 50% (or whatever) premium to me. I'm just trying to make sure i"m not missing something obvious in my research.

Been emailing with highseer (pioneer).
Have an email into chiltrix.
Probably not interested in thermospace as they are more expensive than pioneer (and I consider pioneer to be a name brand, at least mostly).
 
   / Mini split A/C Heat Pump systems #40  
We are probably going with the Chiltrix system, prices can be found here.
Chiltrix Chiller Cost | List Prices of Small Chiller Heat Pump Air Conditioner & Fan Coil Units

The parent company is HotSpot Energy, and the bulk of their business is in the Caribbean. Their tech support is top notch, they answered all of my questions within an hour and I spoke with John on numerous occasions, he is one of their engineers. If you are lucky enough to get John via email or phone then you will be pleased. No they are not a Fortune listed company but they are a very innovative company. We took a gamble with the 48 VDC mini split, we know that, our Mitsubishi unit has been bulletproof but we were looking for something that was native 48VDC for off grid use, they were the only company I found that offered it. The Chiltrix is brand new, I am not sure if there are very many of them even in use yet, but we plan on giving it a try. My Dad was a refrigeration tech, was a certified chilled systems installer and tech. If he were still alive he would be very excited about this product. If the main house were ready for it today, I would have already ordered a 4 ton system from them and I am a hard sell on just about everything I buy.
 

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