Mini split questions?

   / Mini split questions? #41  
I wanted maximum efficiency on my cold climate heat pumps which is why I went with two single head units. Multi-heads have much lower efficiency and higher operating costs. It also gives me some redundancy with two separate units.

I bought them to use instead of my baseboard heaters. Reduced my electric heating bill by almost 60%.
Honestly, if you ran two single zone systems vs a two head multi zone system, you're electric bill would almost be about the same.

However, as you stated, you do get some redundancy with two separate units. The biggest concern with single zone systems is where to put multiple outdoor units and electrical. Overcome those two hurdles, and I'd do single zones all day long. People think that a multi zone costs less than the equivalent of single zones per total capacity, but that isn't always the case.

Sometimes however you'd be amazed at the issues with the handheld remote LOL
 
   / Mini split questions? #42  
Awe the remotes:mad:
 
   / Mini split questions? #43  
Honestly, if you ran two single zone systems vs a two head multi zone system, you're electric bill would almost be about the same.

However, as you stated, you do get some redundancy with two separate units. The biggest concern with single zone systems is where to put multiple outdoor units and electrical. Overcome those two hurdles, and I'd do single zones all day long. People think that a multi zone costs less than the equivalent of single zones per total capacity, but that isn't always the case.

Sometimes however you'd be amazed at the issues with the handheld remote LOL
Interesting point.

My units have a SEER of 30.5. The same capacity and brand multi-head unit has a SEER of 21.0.

Online SEER Savings Calculator

Based on my current electricity rate of $0.15/kwhr that gives me an annual savings of approx $81/year. According to this estimator over a 20 year lifespan that's $1620.

So if my two units last 20 years that means one of my minisplits ends up being free compared to the multihead which, at the time, cost more than 2x as much.

Lower capital investment with two singles, lower operating costs per BTU heat used. It was a no-brainer for me to go with two singles.
 
   / Mini split questions? #44  
Mikester,

That's the conclusion I came too as well, and my two Mitsubishi 9K hyper heat units are a 30.5 SEER and a 12.5 HSPF which is the heating efficiency. Then the 12K unit is 26 SEER and 12 HSPF as I recall.

I specifically didn't want the heating coil either, and after 4 years no issues on any of them. The contractor originally showed up with an 18K unit, and was going to run two heads off one unit.

It does end up saving a lot especially at $.22/KWH electricity, but ours is offset with Solar. Attached is an older (2016 article) on heat pumps and basically supports the single head being the most efficient. The specs on the units are outdated, but good content for those interested in the ROI and costs to operate long term.
 

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   / Mini split questions?
  • Thread Starter
#45  
Thank you for the input.
I haven't responded because my recent hospital stay of 5+ weeks has me struggling to intelligently engage in conversations..
I will jump back in when the fog lifts!
Thank you
90cummins
 
   / Mini split questions? #46  
Thank you for the input.
I haven't responded because my recent hospital stay of 5+ weeks has me struggling to intelligently engage in conversations..
I will jump back in when the fog lifts!
Thank you
90cummins
I hope that you feel better soon and that your brain fog lifts quickly!

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Mini split questions? #47  
mikester and Carl_NH

I understand that it may seem like two single zone higher SEER mini split systems may save you more (electric wise) than a lower SEER multi zone mini split, but I can honestly tell you that is not my own personal experience (and about 7 years ago out of curiosity because I had the opportunity, I did make a side by side comparison with two different homeowner using the same load per system/systems).

mikester, I believe I had mentioned that comparing ductless mini split (inverter compressors) system SEER ratings vs single or two stage compressor ducted systems is not comparing apples to apples? If you read the calculator site you used, it doesn't address the advantage of using mini splits. AHRI savings programs are a loaded gun depending on who is using them. A good HVAC contractor IMO would never promise anything based off one of those websites but offer something in more general terms than an exact dollar amount due to way too many variables outside your control.

I looked last night, on 2 FS09 hyperheat single zone systems, it's right around my same cost as a MXZ-2C hyperheat multi zone unit using the FS heads. I could use the GL indoor heads (I don't lose anything per performance except for losing the iSEE sensor on the FS indoor head, and I've found more older people don't like them) and actually get a lower price than the two single zone systems. I'm not certain how the multi zone was double the cost unless the contractor was making it up on labor.

Then you have electrical. It will cost more in electrical to run two single zone systems vs the multi zone system added additional pads or wall mounting brackets (and or labor to actually make the base "bullet proof" that the homeowner can be proud of).

Carl_NH

I did read the article. It seems Mr. Williams never bothered to contact and talk directly to Mitsubishi, as it's apparent that (Mitsubishi) is his source for copying and pasting information. We have a "weatherization" program in NC as well, and sometimes I'm asked questions about what the State comes up with. We generally just end up shaking our heads as I've tried to talk with the state and it get's very interesting and aggrivating LOL

That said, out of my own curiosity trying to understand if my line of thinking was wrong, I called a leading manufacture last night (I'd prefer not to put them on the spot and speak on their behalf but feel free to PM me and I tell you who they were). In their experiences, the one area where multiple single zone systems will save you some money vs a multi zone system is when you are covering multiple levels of the home as from their experience, the load variation can drastically change, and this makes complete sense and one reason why I am a proponent of single zone systems.

I've learned a long time ago when a paying customer wants something, don't talk them out of it, just give them the information your familiar with and let them make their own choice.

I'm a proponent of single zone ductless mini splits not because they will save the homeowner more money over the long run per their utility bill, but to offer more control for each zone (Mitsubishi does not offer auto changeover on their multi zone systems and from personal experience, I try to stay away from cloud based software to control you HVAC system) along with system redundancy (AKA you aren't screwed if your one outdoor unit takes a crap).

Generally when I lay out residential multiple rooms (4 or more zones) I try to break the system up into a multi zone with a couple of single zones for more "important" areas of the home. As I mentioned previously, you do a 4 zone (or more) multi zone, refrigeration ball valves should be installed on each indoor head, but generally due to cost, no one ever uses them which could cause a lot of headache years down the road.

As noted, generally with bathrooms or master closets, this is where the ducted indoor model comes into play. Generally it's wise not to stick a wall mount unit (if you have the space and clearances to begin with) in a bathroom that can get saturated with with moisture.

For the OP, if possible, depending on the layout of the upper level where he needs heat, and depending on who is using the rooms and why, I'd probably look at 1-2 zone and 1-3 zone system. Being that he is in Massachusetts and heat is required, Fujitsu XLTH system or the Mitsubishi hyperheat would be my two choices (available in both single and multi zone). I haven't used Daikin in a while, but if they have their aurora model in multi zone, another brand I'd look at if available.

Also, put the outdoor condensing unit/units outside if possible, it won't affect the system.

ooh, on a side-note, one reason why more and more manufactures a "mini split" outdoor unit with a conventional indoor unit is for the outdoor unit being a side discharge. Generally you have hight clearances with a conventional unitary split product outdoor unit. Sometimes, the only place to put a outdoor unit is under a deck (believe it or not). These "mini split" outdoor units generally have minimal height clearances but require more space on the side of the unit where the air is being discharged from the outdoor unit. It can be a lifesaver when stuck dealing with decks. You'd be amazed at what people build around their outdoor condensing units.
 
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   / Mini split questions? #48  
mikester and Carl_NH
mikester, I believe I had mentioned that comparing ductless mini split (inverter compressors) system SEER ratings vs single or two stage compressor ducted systems is not comparing apples to apples? If you read the calculator site you used, it doesn't address the advantage of using mini splits. AHRI savings programs are a loaded gun depending on who is using them. A good HVAC contractor IMO would never promise anything based off one of those websites but offer something in more general terms than an exact dollar amount due to way too many variables outside your control.
I guess you'll have to believe me when I said I've done the calcs when I first sized my system. The website link is a convenient way to let other people play around with the numbers and see for themselves.

FYI The contractors were all trying to sell me a bigger system based on their gut feelings and experience selling bigger systems for more money. Fortunately I built my house and have a better grasp on the heat loads and heat calcs than they did. My two smaller units provide more than enough heating and cooling capacity.

I am a little pessimistic when it comes to contractors as they tend to err on the side of profitability vs providing what I need. If I'm wanting to buy a Prius as a single person commuter car I don't want to walk out the door with a 8 passenger 3/4 ton Suburban with a gas guzzling big block V8, HD tow and plow package.
 
   / Mini split questions? #49  
I guess you'll have to believe me when I said I've done the calcs when I first sized my system. The website link is a convenient way to let other people play around with the numbers and see for themselves.

FYI The contractors were all trying to sell me a bigger system based on their gut feelings and experience selling bigger systems for more money. Fortunately I built my house and have a better grasp on the heat loads and heat calcs than they did. My two smaller units provide more than enough heating and cooling capacity.

I am a little pessimistic when it comes to contractors as they tend to err on the side of profitability vs providing what I need. If I'm wanting to buy a Prius as a single person commuter car I don't want to walk out the door with a 8 passenger 3/4 ton Suburban with a gas guzzling big block V8, HD tow and plow package.
I have no doubt you did your research(y)

The only reason why I'm responding so in depth to your comment is I honestly believe your research could have been skewed without you realizing it (I have no clue why a multi zone would be double the cost vs two single zones on your end as my profit would be included in both quotes and I can't think of a time where it was double the price for a multi zone).

Good HVAC contractors will at least do a block load which takes minimal time. If you explain your thoughts to a good HVAC contractor about oversizing, they should do a complete load analysis of the home and explain in detail why they came up with a larger system (put yourself in the contractors shoes, take the time and do a complete load, and you run a 50/50 chance that the homeowner will shop that contractors load around looking for a better price when the other contractors don't actually have to do the work).

I don't generally deal with homeowners (I really don't want to LOL) but when I do, I try to live by the golden rule of doing unto others as you would have done to yourself (I think of the homeowner as like I'm dealing with my own parents). The reality is a business is in business to make money, but the question becomes what are you getting for the price being offered vs others? GOOD HVAC contractors need to make money, but they know the market well enough that they may have the nearest highest install price, but they shouldn't be off by thousands as long as your comparing apples to apples.

On that note, the few times I do sell, I won't lie. I'm generally the highest price (perhaps by about 10%). However, I sit down with the homeowner and compare apples to apples to what others are proposing and what I'm proposing (per scope of work and exactly what is covered). The key is spending the time and explaining what and why in what you're proposing. End of the day, it's all about trust. It's that trust that allows the homeowner to allow the contractor to compare apples to apples IMO.

I do however stand corrected per my last post. The only time I would talk about ROI is dealing with geothermal over anything else. The irony there is when you deal with the most efficient HVAC system on the market, you aren't comparing SEER ratings for ROI. Go figure😁

Not that it matters, but if I were selling to you, I'd do exactly what you did with two single zone systems over a multi 2 zone system, but not exactly for the same reasons 😁

Tell me at least if someone sold you on Mitsubishi, someone at least offered you the MHK1 or newer MHK2 thermostat (should be a standard add on with ANY Mitsubishi system offered by a contractor IMO).
 
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   / Mini split questions? #50  
If you have the outside space to either sink a well or run geothermal pipes, a geothermal unit would be the best bet in Ma. Not sure ductless are good for your lowest temps.

Ductless outdoor (or geothermal) units would service several inside units, all having their own thermostat. You just have to run the refrigerant to each indoor unit. Refrigerant lines can be run through a gutter downspout (actual or not) to hide/protect them.
 
   / Mini split questions? #51  
Not sure ductless are good for your lowest temps.
A 15K AC ductless mini split can give you 16,000 BTU/h of heating down to -15F outside air temperature. Keep in mind, there are no strip heaters in mini splits anymore (long time ago, there were LOL).

Keep in mind, the key is knowing which system you need LOL

Exactly what are your parameters for "your lowest temps", and what are your expectations for heat?
 
   / Mini split questions? #52  
Sigarms,

I agree on all your points, and each installation/situation is different, and also agree geothermal is a great for new builds with land or water source for thermal exchange.

We have FHW Oil for primary heat and HW, and installed two ductless units in the house, one upstairs bedroom, loft area 900 SF, mostly for summer cooling, and a 12K downstairs in a 32x32 area for summer cooling and supplemental heat in the winter. We have 32x52 downstairs area which is "conditioned" in the summer - meaning the mini split cools the main area to 72-75* and keeps the rest of the house cool/comfortable.

in the 1000 SF detached heated garage / open concept office the 9K Hyper heat unit replaced an older Monitor kerosene unit for heat and ac as needed - this unit is probably undersized but maintains the space well unless the temp outside is below zero or above 90.

All are the Mitsubishi hyper heat models with no heating element in the pan.

Bottom line, for the OP, with 5 bedrooms to heat/cool, a distributed mini split system is a good solution once an HVAC assessment is done on current state.
 
   / Mini split questions? #53  
Tell me at least if someone sold you on Mitsubishi, someone at least offered you the MHK1 or newer MHK2 thermostat (should be a standard add on with ANY Mitsubishi system offered by a contractor IMO).
I am about to have a Mitsubishi multi zone mini-split system put in my workshop/garage. There was no mention of the MHK1 or 2 thermostats. What is the list price for that add-on and what does that buy you? I have been using the handheld remote in my other Mitsubishi mini-split system for the last 10 years with no issues/complaints.
 
   / Mini split questions? #54  
We are using a Lennox one ton mini-split on our 12'x14' sunroom in NC Kansas. I quickly found that the controller/thermostat supplied with the unit was less than adequate for controlling temp as it would allow several degrees of temp swings.

Replaced the original supplied controller with the Cielo and now able to control temp within one degree if desired.


 
   / Mini split questions? #55  
I am about to have a Mitsubishi multi zone mini-split system put in my workshop/garage. There was no mention of the MHK1 or 2 thermostats. What is the list price for that add-on and what does that buy you? I have been using the handheld remote in my other Mitsubishi mini-split system for the last 10 years with no issues/complaints.
The MHK2 as far as I see are a remote wall mount thermostat wifi enabled that replaces the internal thermostat - its a $350-400 option. This seems expensive for a remote thermostat, but let's see what Sigarms says on the topic!

I too have the handheld remotes with no complaints.
 
   / Mini split questions? #56  
The MHK2 as far as I see are a remote wall mount thermostat wifi enabled that replaces the internal thermostat - its a $350-400 option. This seems expensive for a remote thermostat, but let's see what Sigarms says on the topic!

I too have the handheld remotes with no complaints.
The MHK2 is not WiFi. It uses Honeywell's propriatary wireless RedLINK technology.

The advantage is you do not have to run any wires to the indoor unit and can mount the thermostat anywhere. It's also a very basic "simple" thermostat with easy to see arrows that pretty much anyone can understand.

It's great that you have no complaints about your remote controller, however I've found for older people, they can find the handheld remote controller very confusing (the Japaneese finally got over using a snowflake and the sun which everyone had a hard time figuring out which was which and for what mode LOL). Please note, generally from my own experience, some brands are more "complex" per their remote controller. Deal with enough people, and over time you'll also get calls that for God only knows how, the remote controller is/was lost.

If you're going to spend good money on a good contractor who knows what he's doing, personally I find the pricing you given is way to high for a MHK2 install.
 
   / Mini split questions? #57  
I've found for older people, they can find the handheld remote controller very confusing (the Japanese finally got over using a snowflake and the sun which everyone had a hard time figuring out which was which and for what mode LOL).
Yes, I agree, the sun and the snowflake ARE confusing! I read the manual and then "set it and forget it" more or less, other than my wife knows the "up" temp button in the winter and "down" in the summer all to well :)

I used to turn the unit in my office off over the weekend or when on work trips in winter, but for the last two just set and forget it - didn't make a huge difference in cost - maybe $100 for the season at most.
 
   / Mini split questions? #58  
Yes, I agree, the sun and the snowflake ARE confusing!
The way I see it, when you're dealing with someone over 50 years old, which controller would YOU want? ;)

MS.png


MS2.png

I'm just getting old. For residential use, I still scratch my head on why someone would want to control their residential HVAC system with their phone.
 
   / Mini split questions? #59  
I'm well beyond 50 - will be retirement age this year and I have no issue with the controls!
 
   / Mini split questions? #60  
The MHK2 is not WiFi. It uses Honeywell's propriatary wireless RedLINK technology.


If you're going to spend good money on a good contractor who knows what he's doing, personally I find the pricing you given is way to high for a MHK2 install.
That price, $350-$400, is the price that I am seeing online for the MHK2 unit. Does there need to be a base unit wired to the air handler to communicate with the MHK2 unit? I asked my dealer and he quoted me $350 for the MHK2 unit, plus installation costs of $50. I am going to pass on the MHK2. I got out a permanent marker and wrote short hand notes the handheld remote controller so I know if I'm in 'snow' mode or 'sun' mode.
Sigarms: Thank you for taking the time to provide your thoughts and input on this.
 

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