Navistar refiles suit against Ford

[dgl24087]

From the Detroit News:


Thursday, February 28, 2008
Report: Navistar files suit against Ford Motor Co. in engine dispute

Detroit News Wire Services

Navistar International Corp., a diesel-engine supplier to Ford Motor Co. for more than 25 years, has refiled a breach-of-contract suit against the automaker, Bloomberg News reported today.
Navistar says Ford backed out of a pledge to use Navistar engines in Ford pickup trucks.
A Navistar lawsuit was dismissed in September in order to allow Navistar to mediate a third-party dispute. That dispute is settled and Navistar is taking the case up again, the Warrenville, Illinois-company said in a statement today.

** On a side note (not from this story, but from PickupTruck.com: Pickup Truck News, Reviews, Community and Help Finding a New or Used Pickup, regarding the temporary order from Ford's suit against Navistar last March): Ford also agreed to pay $7,673 per engine instead of the $6,167 it believed to be the fair price until the dispute is finally settled.

 

[JiminGa]

one more way they can attempt price hike justifications

 

[Z-Michigan]

Very interesting. Makes me wonder about the claim that Ford is cancelling the V10 and pushing diesels just so it can make more profits on the diesels.

Also, Navistar doesn't sell any pickup that realistically competes with Ford and to my knowledge isn't looking to sell engines to someone else. Maybe the engines really cost a lot to make. I would think at some point Ford would develop a diesel in-house so they didn't have this running dispute with Navistar.

 

[dgl24087]

Very interesting. Makes me wonder about the claim that Ford is cancelling the V10 and pushing diesels just so it can make more profits on the diesels.

Also, Navistar doesn't sell any pickup that realistically competes with Ford and to my knowledge isn't looking to sell engines to someone else. Maybe the engines really cost a lot to make. I would think at some point Ford would develop a diesel in-house so they didn't have this running dispute with Navistar.

The root of the lawsuit is that Ford has developed an in-house diesel, the 4.4L due in the F150. That engine is capable of displacement up to 6.0L. The 4.4L is rumored to be in the 350 HP 650 ft-lb. torque range of the 6.4L Powerstroke.

 

[Builder]

The root of the lawsuit is that Ford has developed an in-house diesel, the 4.4L due in the F150. That engine is capable of displacement up to 6.0L. The 4.4L is rumored to be in the 350 HP 650 ft-lb. torque range of the 6.4L Powerstroke.

That's right. It looks like the 6.4L may only be a 2-year diesel. If it's true, Ford will be installing it's 4th diesel engine in 8 years in the Superduty.

Once can imagine that Ford service techs must be ready to find the nearest bridge to jump off of. They don't know how to fix the 6L yet, they're just getting to know the 6.4L and now here comes another diesel from a different source.

Man that's crazy.

 

[Rara Avis]

That's right. It looks like the 6.4L may only be a 2-year diesel. If it's true, Ford will be installing it's 4th diesel engine in 8 years in the Superduty.

Once can imagine that Ford service techs must be ready to find the nearest bridge to jump off of. They don't know how to fix the 6L yet, they're just getting to know the 6.4L and now here comes another diesel from a different source.

Man that's crazy.

Gee...if you kept your old Ford Diesel truck for 500,000 miles there might not be any techs that will know how to work on it or have parts to fix it...

 

[farmfun]

Trust me they cant support trucks with a lot less than 500,000 miles! Try 270,000

 

[Eagleview]

Ford is better off paying the money and ridding itself of their junk engines . The 6 litre has a lot of good ideas (on the CAD files) but dont work in the real world (ive been inside mine and know from first hand). They should use Cummins and have a real engine instead of waisting money on new techs with all the inherant teathing problems .

 

[Builder]

Ford is better off paying the money and ridding itself of their junk engines . The 6 litre has a lot of good ideas (on the CAD files) but dont work in the real world (ive been inside mine and know from first hand). They should use Cummins and have a real engine instead of waisting money on new techs with all the inherant teathing problems .

IH makes some good ones, too. DT series is as dependable as it gets.

 

[Builder]

Ford is better off paying the money and ridding itself of their junk engines . The 6 litre has a lot of good ideas (on the CAD files) but dont work in the real world (ive been inside mine and know from first hand). They should use Cummins and have a real engine instead of waisting money on new techs with all the inherant teathing problems .

IH makes good ones, too DT series is as good as it gets. I agree the 6L is probably destined for the "boat anchor" moniker along with the 8.2L fuel pincher, the 3208 CAT, etc.

 

[MarblemountLane]

I have to agree that DT engines are good. But they are too heavy for pickups. Sure are great in a 4700LP, though.

I'd sure love to see a good midsized pickup, say Dodge Dakota sized, with a really efficient little diesel engine. Fuel prices are going through the roof. If our domestic manufacturers don't respond to the need, that cheesy Mahindra pickup coming from India will knock the crap out of them -- as if Toyota and Nissan weren't already doing so.

Mahindra to hit the US market with with a diesel-hybrid pickup/SUV in 2010 - AutoblogGreen

Straightline - 2009 Mahindra pickup

PickupTruck.com - Mahindra Promises Diesel Hybrid Pickup by 2010

I heard somewhere that Ford owns Cummins now. Is that true, or just a myth?

I wouldn't want a super high powered or complicated diesel, just one that runs forever and gets decent fuel mileage.

 

[jcmseven]

Builder,

I agree with you. It is ashame that this ill-will continues between these two companies. I believe Navistar has built a really good engine with the 6.4 and to think that yet again we may be looking at another supplier or another diesel for Ford trucks is not comforting. You and I have debated the Ford/GM thing many times, but one thing I cannot disagree with is that Ford needs to have a consistent relationship with whomever is building their engines. I cannot imagine that Ford, or any major auto manufacturer, could legitimately build a diesel itself for less money and with better reliability than outsourcing.

John M

 

[Builder]

I have to agree that DT engines are good. But they are too heavy for pickups. Sure are great in a 4700LP, though.

I'd sure love to see a good midsized pickup, say Dodge Dakota sized, with a really efficient little diesel engine. Fuel prices are going through the roof. If our domestic manufacturers don't respond to the need, that cheesy Mahindra pickup coming from India will knock the crap out of them -- as if Toyota and Nissan weren't already doing so.

Mahindra to hit the US market with with a diesel-hybrid pickup/SUV in 2010 - AutoblogGreen

Straightline - 2009 Mahindra pickup

PickupTruck.com - Mahindra Promises Diesel Hybrid Pickup by 2010

I heard somewhere that Ford owns Cummins now. Is that true, or just a myth?

I wouldn't want a super high powered or complicated diesel, just one that runs forever and gets decent fuel mileage.

No, Ford doesn't own Cummins. That's a total MYTH. I can't believe that myth is still out there going on 20 years now.

I read the Mahindra article. I thought this quote was funny:

"This is a market that nobody is going to be in for at least three of four years. We're going to be able to give small businesses a truck that can get 30 to 35 miles-per-gallon, and with a diesel engine that's durable. It's a $40,000 truck that we're going to sell in the mid-$20,000s. This is not Chinese junk."

 

[Z-Michigan]

I wouldn't want a super high powered or complicated diesel, just one that runs forever and gets decent fuel mileage.

With the 2007+ emissions requirements, such diesels are a thing of the past. Buy a pre-2007 Ram/Cummins or Ford with a 7.3L for some approximation of this. As we've beat to death in other threads, the 2007+ diesels make sense only if you're using it for hard work all the time.

 

[Builder]

That's right, the mahindra diesel will be buried in emmissions junk, too.

when 2010 hits, it gets worse.

 

[PCABE5]

From two different trade industry reports Ford has built in-house diesels for the F-150 and F250+. The warranty claims for the last two Navistar 6.0 /6.4 engines have killed the relationship. Ford dropped the V-6 option for the F-150 due to the problems that were found in development and now they are going to stop purchasing the V-8 diesels as well. Ford says that by 2010 all diesels will be made in-house. Have to see if this holds true.

Z-Michigan's recommendation on trucks is correct. Buy pre-2007 if you can and you will see better mileage. Makes my '02 Cummins something I do not want to let go of.

 

[Builder]

That's why I bought an '07 DMAX. Just as powerful, but less complex.

If I need another truck, it'll be a used pre'08 and I'll just have to live without the new truck smell. or I'll go back to gas.

$4.04/gallon for diesel.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I assume your "07" Dmax was one of the ones made before 12/31/06 and therefore not using the 07 emissions equipment? Lucky man.

We have a 2006 Ram/Cummins which we're very happy with. The newer model makes slightly more hp but costs more, gets lower mpg and has more stuff to go wrong. I expect we will keep our 06 for a very long time. It's probably worth it even if many things have to be rebuilt 10-20 years from now, given that we could keep running a powerful motor without EGR or DPF's.

 

[PCABE5]

Your 2006 Cummins will outlast the body in the Midwest salt zone. Verdict not in on the D-Max.

 

[Builder]

I assume your "07" Dmax was one of the ones made before 12/31/06 and therefore not using the 07 emissions equipment? Lucky man.

We have a 2006 Ram/Cummins which we're very happy with. The newer model makes slightly more hp but costs more, gets lower mpg and has more stuff to go wrong. I expect we will keep our 06 for a very long time. It's probably worth it even if many things have to be rebuilt 10-20 years from now, given that we could keep running a powerful motor without EGR or DPF's.

Yep, pre DPF '07.

The newer DPF DMAX's have been doing very well, too.