Need help New Driveway - Asphalt paving specs?

[hazmat]

Hey gang,

Wife is sick of weeds growing in gravel driveway. I'm sick of dealing with gravel in lawn after plowing snow. So we've begun getting quotes for paving.

Question - what do I need? So far 2 guys quoted remove gravel, grade & pave with 2 1.5" layers of asphalt (3" total). One mentioned adding stone dust while grading.

Should there be some kind of gravel base under the pavement? Should they be compacting the dirt, or is it already packed from 9 years of use as driveway. Looking for the 20 year solution, not 100 year....

Thanks

 

[beenthere]

If the drive has had no soft spots in those years of driving, then the asphalt should ride on top very well. I don't know what 'remove gravel' means, or the reason why, but would think it would only be for leveling and keeping the right 'grade'. You want a firm base under the asphalt, IMO.

Just paved my 35 year old gravel drive, and the 'ditch' on the upper side was filled in (now the water runs across the drive, not along it) with re-grind (old asphalt) which is better than gravel but about the same price. I had extra re-grind brought in to use along the edges of the asphalt.

But, weeds will grow through the asphalt too, so use round-up to kill as many as possible ahead of time. In the old days (pre asphalt) I regularly would use round-up spray on the gravel to keep the weeds from growing.

I'm very happy with the outcome.

 

[Golfgar4]

Stephen,

Admittedly it's been about 35 years since I worked in asphalt (summer work during college), but I can't ever remember NOT having some kind of stone base. Most of our work back then was building/paving new parking lots and streets. But we did do an occassional driveway.

Certainly there could have been some tremendous improvements in asphalt technology in these intervening years. But it would be hard to believe that they're now paving on compressed dirt!? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I believe that your 9 year old driveway does provide a well compacted base, but I also believe that there needs to be some amount of small rock (gravel) under your first mat of asphalt. That gravel should be well compacted before laying the asphalt. You have a tractor. Any chance you could save a little money by removing some of the material yourself, and then letting the contractor come in and do the final prep?

Will this driveway be for just car traffic, or will there be heavier traffic, such as trucks (or tractors with implements?? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif)? If you'll be having heavier traffic, then you might want to consider 4" of asphalt. Otherwise, I think 3" will do.

You might want to consider doing some kind of curbing or forms on the sides of the driveway. One of the problems a person can encounter with asphalt is that over time, the edges begin to breakdown and crumble when they are not supported. Now you didn't mention how long this driveway will be, and certainly adding something like curbing or edging will increase the cost. But it greatly enhances the appearance of the driveway, and also helps maintain longer. It seems as though once the edges start to crumble, the rest of the driveway deteriorates fairly quickly.

You also need to remember that there is some on going maintenance for an asphalt driveway. The asphalt should be sealed every so often (we didn't do that and I can't remember what frequency we recommended /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif) to maintain it's appearance and keep cracks and holes from developing.

Hope this helped. Good luck.

 

[LarryRB]

After running a town highway dep't. I found that here in New England you're way ahead of the game going chip seal verses bituminous ( asphalt).. With stone chip seal they lay down a row of 3/4 stone, oil over, then roll, then a mix of 1/2 - 3/8 stone, oil and roll, final layer of oil and 1/4 chip stone and roll.. Asphalt does not give with heaving stones between winter and spring.. Chip stone does and acts like an elastic band.. Also, very little set up needs and the cost is one third that of bituminous..

 

[hazmat]

Larry,

Any pictures of what that might look like? Would any paving contractor be able to do it?

 

[LarryRB]

Have you ever traveled the roads and watch them oil, then spread real small stones on the old roads? Same thing only they found out that layering it with dofferent size stones os better. You only layer on gravel roads instead of asphalting them.. After trying the first two miles of highly traveled gravel roads, I swear by this system.. That was about 8 years ago and just now, they will put one layer of oil/1/4 seal over it.. Of course you're driveway, at least shouldn't., have 300 vehicles per day.. Most asphalt pavers will not deal with it as it cuts into their profits and future jobs.. All State is who I dealt with on the town basis.. They are in Sunderland Mass and have been buying up most of the oilers in the last 10 years.. I beleive thy have an 800 number, and if you call them, ask if they acquired any companies up your way or better still, do they have any town chip sealing scheduled.. I always dealt with a guy named "Huck" who lives in Hamden MA and has treated me better than well could ever be... If they are oiling in towns near you, tht is the time to have it done.. the costs is usually cut a few pennies per sq foot layed down because they don't have to truck in the stone and oil long distance. Not only that, Huck was always for the small guy or small town like I ran and it shows everywhere he's ever been...

 

[KubotaSteve]

Larry,
From what you are describing, that sounds like a tar and chip road. They used those on old back roads where I live, but they never seemed to hold up as well as asphalt. They also did some sub division roads with the tar and chip and they did ok unless the big dump trucks were running on it and then it got tore up pretty bad. I think if I was going to do my driveway, I would go with asphalt. Just my two cents.

 

[LarryRB]

It is, somewhat, what your describing.. ALthough, we don't have tri-axles grossing 135K carrying coal.. I stayed a year outside Ironton Ohio across from Huntington W.Va and seen what they do there.. Here, it is 3 separate layers, 3 separate types of oil used and heavily rolled in place.. A long drive they can do in 6 or so hours.. Another thing is, up here, we have radical temp swings which you guys don't.. It can be 15 below zero 20 days running, then one day of 30.. This, is what makes the chip seal roads better in my opinion because the chip seal can adapt to these wild swings.

 

[SPIKER]

we had the drive done about 5 yrs back with asphault. it is shot now... too many ruts and such, it was a 15+ yr drive with gravel under well compacted base but there was some pot holes and those came back with in a year through the asphault. now those spots held water and cracked up and are well shot. it was 2 layers of 1.5~2" rolled and tamped, but we do have trucks in and out, for loadeding and unloading equipment. as well as trash truck for dumpster.

I would go the tar and chip, the roads around here are done that way, they hold up as long or longer with truck trafic from farms as well as LARGE tractors & amish buggies. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

yes the frost heave in Ohio is bad, weeks of sub 0 then next days are above freezing & raining then bakc to the sub freezing . all year long, then summer is 90's+ for weeks or several days and rain same day then drop to 60's at night. they may develop some Swales in the tar/chip but usually no cracks.

Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Currmudgeon]

If you're getting ruts and potholes, the problem is in the base rather than the pavement. Asphalt or Chip-n-seal are flexible pavements and gain a significant portion of their strength from the base. If there are soft spots within about two feet of the surface, they need to be dug out and replaced with good compacted native material or crushed aggregate. It's also important to keep water out of the base, installing drainage ditches if necessary.

The best way to check the subgrade is by proof rolling it. Run a loaded dump truck on the prepared subgrade. If it moves, compact it some more, or undercut it and replace it.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( it was 2 layers of 1.5~2" rolled and tamped, )</font>

Depending on the underlying soils, and without doing any calculations, I'd be thinking of at least 8 inches of compact aggregate base on a sound subgrade, with two courses of asphalt, totalling about four inches. The trucks will still beat that up in time.

 

[BobInMN]

I work as a Civil Engineering Tech. The way most streets are being redone or built as new is as follows. First you excavate to a natural firm base. Compact this base. Add clay fill to subgrade. Normally compaction requirements are 100% of standard proctor for the top 3 feet of the subgrade and 95% for anything greater than 3 feet. Once the subgrade is compacted it is roll tested with a loaded tandem dump truck. Any deflection greater than 2" is a failure. Once roll test is passed fabric is placed and anywhere from 1 to 2 feet of granular material is placed on it. This granular material is compacted to 100% standard proctor. Next you place a 12" layer of class 5 compacted to 100% standard proctor. Then you do another roll test. If all passes you place the base course of bituminous, usally 2" - 3" (all depends on the mix design). Last thing is the wear course, usually 1-1/2".

 

[BobInMN]

One other thing I forgot. Ask the contractor for a written warranty.

 

[Junkman]

I had my driveway done about 8 years ago and they dug out all the old material and put down a base of stone and stone dust. Then put down a 3" base coat of bituminous concrete. This is the only material that I have had for the last 8 years. I have had numerous dump trucks, excavators, bulldozers, oil trucks, trash trucks, etc. over the driveway and it still is intact. I did have some areas that were just dug out, because of the harshly cold winters, boulders have been pushed up and have caused a high spot on the driveway. These boulders must be removed before the final coat is being put down next month. To do the final coat, they are going to spread a "glue" and then put down a leveling course. The it will be rolled and a final 1 1/2" top coat is going to be put down. The asphalt (bituminous concrete) that the contractor that I use uses is made up to MA State formula for highway use. Different contractors spec the formula depending on use and to keep the cost down. I was just talking to the contractor about this a couple of days ago. He told me that asphalt is running about $35 - $43 per ton, depending on where he purchases it. He also commented that the company that supplied my original material was not producing the quality product that they once did. It was his opinion that they were using about 2 gallons less asphalt per ton. He also told me that some of the manufacturers were putting in a larger percentage of "old road grindings" to cheapen the mixture. He is very particular about the mix and his work shows it. Remember it is better to pay more initially than to save a few dollars and have a job that doesn't last. I feel that doing it my way.... having the base coat done and waiting a couple of years to put down the top coat is best. We now know what rocks/boulders would be the problem and have eliminated them. When the original base coat was done, there was no signs of any of these rocks. They must have been down deep, because they spent 2 days just preparing the "bed" of the driveway before they put down the base coat.
I would ask for references of jobs that were done a few years back. All driveways look good when they are new. Also ask about the material specification and how many tons of material that they plan on using. Try to get a "state specification mix" if at all possible. Also, don't worry about the sides. All you have to do is back fill the sides with loam and plant the grass. Once the loam is packed down and grass growing the sides will be supported. It is important that water doesn't infiltrate under the driveway, so make sure that any source of water is diverted. I wouldn't consider doing any part of the job. That is what the contractor is being paid for and in reality, you won't save much doing any of the grading yourself and if the driveway should fail, it will be blamed on what work you have performed. I would do a Google search and learn as much as possible about the process and then ask the questions of the contractors. The better educated you are, the better a job you can expect because of that knowledge. Call the asphalt plant and see who they recommend. Call the town and ask who does their work. Just don't deal with the guy that has one truck and a paver that is here today and gone tomorrow. There are a lot of good contractors out there, you just have to find them.

 

[hazmat]

Thanks everybody for the info. I've got calls into a couple local contractors that neighbors (local banker & developer) have recommended.

Junkman - what kind of condition was your previous driveway in?

I'm guessing that the soils under my driveway are OK, as I don't have any pothole problems. I think that may be dumb luck vs. any planning on the builders part (we are third owners of property).

If the exsiting subgrade passes the loaded truck test, do I still need 6" of crushed stone? I will be discussing this with the contractors of course.

 

[Currmudgeon]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If the exsiting subgrade passes the loaded truck test, do I still need 6" of crushed stone? )</font>

Probably not. I would like to see it, but it's not my money.

One thing to beware of with driveway construction is compaction. One reason I believe driveways break up is that the asphalt is poorly compacted. The toy rollers used by driveway contractors don't have the compactive effect as a bigger road roller. The result is under compacred asphalt with voids. I think that's one reason why driveways crumble and the local street doesn't.

 

[BobInMN]

Most asphalt fails due to poorly prepared bases. You want a certain percent of voids, usually 4 - 5 %. You must have a firm base to push against to compact the asphalt. Just remember the firmer the cushion the better the pushing. Do your contractors do a rolling pattern to determine density of the asphalt when they install it? Usually you want to be 95% of the Marshall or Rice density. Again ask for a warranty.

 

[Junkman]

The original driveway was built up gravel over a dirt / clay sub soil. My contractor used a vibratory roller on everything. We were out to dinner with him this evening and I asked about "chip seal" driveways. He said that today, it is just as expensive as an asphalt driveway because of where the materials have to be trucked from. The liquid asphalt comes from RI and the chipped rock has to be trucked it from a distant location. He didn't say where and I didn't ask. He just suggested that we start saving our pennies for the final coat. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif He has become a good friend from when he first did the paving for us a long time ago. From everything that I have learned from him, the mix is only the second most important part of driveway quality. The base is the most important. The best material will fail if the base isn't done properly. The other thing to keep in mind is that you want to make sure that there is no water infiltrating under the drive. Do what ever it takes to make sure that the water goes over the drive, not under it.

 

[JDgreen227]

Junkman,

Excellent and well written advice in your posts, my stepdad was a foreman for a commercial paver for twenty years and everything you pointed out is factual. We had our driveway paved 12 years ago, formerly it was gravel over dirt/clay soil, it had been compacted over a 50 year period.

After 12 years our asphalt is still in fairly good shape, except where they formed the edge at an angle. Where the edges are squared off and full thickness, there is little cracking, but the angled edges are thinner and starting to crumble. When we have the drive redone in a year or two, I am going to ask the paver to leave the edges full thickness and not tamp them down at an angle.

What do you think?

 

[Junkman]

Full thickness edges and backfill with a good quality loam. Plant grass to keep the soil in place and have the grass about 1/4" - 1/2" higher than the edge of the driveway. This will protect the edges from breaking and crumbling by your car. If a heavy truck goes off the edge, all bets are off... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I have a friend that has a commercial piece of property and has had the parking lot and driveway sealed by a commercial company that does striping and parking lot maintenance. He has done this for the past 25 years and the asphalt is in perfect condition. If a driveway is installed properly originally, and it is taken care of properly, then it will last almost indefinitely. The problem is that people allow grass to start in the cracks, they don't have the cracks repaired, and when a pot hole starts, they just keep driving in it pushing out the material and weakening the edges around the hole making it larger. Maintenance doesn't cost, it saves. This is a hard lesson for many home owners to learn, and a lot of them think that the products that they purchase at the large box store are of comparable quality to the products that the commercial companies use. Another thing to be leery of is the "(***** term deleted)" sealing companies that come around in the warm months offering to seal your driveway for a small fee. They use some tar and fuel oil and spray it so it will look black again, but the material that they use is like putting colored water on the driveway. A good contractor never goes door to door soliciting business. He doesn't have to, he has all the referral work that he needs. Quality is always commensurate with price, but price is not always commensurate with quality. Know who you are dealing with and watch what they are doing. It is worth taking a day off of work to observe, so you know that what you are paying for you are getting. Don't be afraid to take out your ruler and measure to see that you get 1 1/2" of asphalt that you were quoted for in the price. If you are not there, you have no idea of what the thickness is, and by the time the driveway fails, the installer will be long gone with your money.