Need some insight on project

[coldsteelva]

If you have never used or seen the Ditra products in use, check out some of the Mike Holmes programs (Holmes on Homes, Make it Right) - he's from Canada, but he always prefers over-engineering and above minimum code. Watching his programs over the past decade was where I first heard of the Ditra (bright orange, waterproof, waffle sheets for tile underlayment). Schluter-Kerdi (mfr of Ditra) now makes the heat mats which are another tile underlayment called HeatMat (I think), but it allows for the snap in of heating element cable for under tile heated floors.

 

[17 Oaks]

If you have never used or seen the Ditra products in use, check out some of the Mike Holmes programs (Holmes on Homes, Make it Right) - he's from Canada, but he always prefers over-engineering and above minimum code. Watching his programs over the past decade was where I first heard of the Ditra (bright orange, waterproof, waffle sheets for tile underlayment). Schluter-Kerdi (mfr of Ditra) now makes the heat mats which are another tile underlayment called HeatMat (I think), but it allows for the snap in of heating element cable for under tile heated floors.

Yea I looked into the heated system, but decided against it due to our short/mild winters down here in S Tx. Most years we don't even hit freezing.

Of course the BIG challenge is finding someone who can work with Ditra. I personally don't want to do it, but like most jobs I end up doing or redoing due to either stupid cost or poor workmanship.

Speaking of STUPID cost: Got a bid on installing a tankless hot water unit in place of my failing tank. Hope you are sitting down...$800 per hr, 24 hr min + cost of the tankless unit. So as you won't have to run the numbers...$19,200 labor min, $3000 for the unit for a total bid of $22,200 plus tax.

NO NOT KIDDING! And this came from a Master plumber, owner of the company.

I installed it myself, took approx 4 hr, cost was about $1600 total.

 

[jfh28]

the tile council of america puts out a installation handbook that provides details for various recommended installations for different situations that you may want to look at.......I'm sure it's online..........of more concern is the pic you show of the joists underneath........there are multiple joists which have been cut out for plumbing which is compromising the structural integrity of the joists that you should have looked at........joists may only be holed or notched a certain amount and only at certain locations along the span without effecting their ability to carry the loads above.........and the pic looks like those joists have some pretty good chunks taken out of them very close to the bearing point near the beam.........Jack

 

[coldsteelva]

the tile council of america puts out a installation handbook that provides details for various recommended installations for different situations that you may want to look at.......I'm sure it's online..........of more concern is the pic you show of the joists underneath........there are multiple joists which have been cut out for plumbing which is compromising the structural integrity of the joists that you should have looked at........joists may only be holed or notched a certain amount and only at certain locations along the span without effecting their ability to carry the loads above.........and the pic looks like those joists have some pretty good chunks taken out of them very close to the bearing point near the beam.........Jack

I agree with this assessment as well. You're going to need to sister some joists to regain/retain the structural load-carrying properties of those beams.

 

[teejk]

I agree with this assessment as well. You're going to need to sister some joists to regain/retain the structural load-carrying properties of those beams.

In addition to just engineering considerations, tile flooring does not like any flex in the substrate.

 

[teejk]

Yea I looked into the heated system, but decided against it due to our short/mild winters down here in S Tx. Most years we don't even hit freezing.

Of course the BIG challenge is finding someone who can work with Ditra. I personally don't want to do it, but like most jobs I end up doing or redoing due to either stupid cost or poor workmanship.

Speaking of STUPID cost: Got a bid on installing a tankless hot water unit in place of my failing tank. Hope you are sitting down...$800 per hr, 24 hr min + cost of the tankless unit. So as you won't have to run the numbers...$19,200 labor min, $3000 for the unit for a total bid of $22,200 plus tax.

NO NOT KIDDING! And this came from a Master plumber, owner of the company.

I installed it myself, took approx 4 hr, cost was about $1600 total.

I've been hearing some ridiculous quotes on various things lately. I guess some people are busy and don't want the work so they come up with outrageous numbers. As for the Ditra, it installs just like tile. Mortar and a notched trowel. Btw on an earlier post you mentioned that the doors had been cut. Guess that fact may work into your decision on the substrate. You might have to raise the substrate for cosmetic reasons.

 

[17 Oaks]

the tile council of america puts out a installation handbook that provides details for various recommended installations for different situations that you may want to look at.......I'm sure it's online..........of more concern is the pic you show of the joists underneath........there are multiple joists which have been cut out for plumbing which is compromising the structural integrity of the joists that you should have looked at........joists may only be holed or notched a certain amount and only at certain locations along the span without effecting their ability to carry the loads above.........and the pic looks like those joists have some pretty good chunks taken out of them very close to the bearing point near the beam.........Jack

I agree with this assessment as well. You're going to need to sister some joists to regain/retain the structural load-carrying properties of those beams.

Legit concern and I did bring in a consulting Architect prior to doing all the ceiling work. Due to the size at 1"x12" and that most are on < 16 in centers he was comfortable with the wood removal.

NOTE: The wood removal was already there to begin with and has supported the floor for many many years with zero tile cracking so I am ok with that. I do see the Ditra as a better and lighter weight approach and I think worth my investment. vs the concrete backer board. Bear in mind this bathroom was 9x15, with tile from floor to the 12' ceiling on concrete back board. I just hauled 3000 lbs to the dump and another almost 2000 lbs so there was 5000 lbs in tile, concrete and cabinets and there were no cracks and none of the joists has slipped down...at all.



If you look in the pic to the upper left that was a flat ceiling and I vaulted it.

 

[jfh28]

it certainly sounds like you are trying to do everything right and as best as can be with the conditions you have.....and from the look of the pic's you sent you have your hands full based on the previous construction.........I do question the consulting advice you received though.......all I can say is I hope you got everything in writing from him when he said he was comfortable with it.........the international residential building code which is used for homes in most of the country states that the maximum height of a notch in the bottom of a floor joist can be the depth of the joist divided by 6.....so in your case that would be 12/6 = 2 inches.......just visually those notches look like a lot more then 2 inches in height.......and at only 1" thick those joists just don't have a lot of meat to them.......a plumber with a saw is a very dangerous person on a job site......Jack

 

[civilian]

I have worked with a tile man. We have laid down the Ditra material and have also used a light weight concrete tile backer board. It was actually scored with a special utility style knife and then snapped for straight cuts. Used a grinder with a diamond cut off wheel for difficult cuts. And yes we staple the tile backer board in place over wood subfloors.

Ditra was used over concrete floor. It was the heat grid type of Ditra. Jon

 

[17 Oaks]

it certainly sounds like you are trying to do everything right and as best as can be with the conditions you have.....and from the look of the pic's you sent you have your hands full based on the previous construction.........I do question the consulting advice you received though.......all I can say is I hope you got everything in writing from him when he said he was comfortable with it.........the international residential building code which is used for homes in most of the country states that the maximum height of a notch in the bottom of a floor joist can be the depth of the joist divided by 6.....so in your case that would be 12/6 = 2 inches.......just visually those notches look like a lot more then 2 inches in height.......and at only 1" thick those joists just don't have a lot of meat to them.......a plumber with a saw is a very dangerous person on a job site......Jack

I understand. When I stripped out the sheetrock I saw same and inspected it very well for the concerns you state. There was no visible splitting or cracking anywhere to be found. Then the fact that the bathroom did not have a floor but only a subfloor with concrete backer board. This begs the question, why? Well the original floor was taken out, which was wood or so it appears and my guess wood with linoleum. They had to remove it in order to put in backer board and floor tile and I have made 2 trips tot the dump and left almost 5000 lbs of backer board and tile from that bathroom behind. I am only replacing tile in the shower and floor, just using drywall for the rest. My guess is that is a net savings in weight of about 1500 lb+.

In the pic I posted above you will see a beam that supports those joists, that is a Hickory beam 10"x12"x30' that is about 200 years old...me and one other guy installed that, it weighs almost 800 lbs. I removed the supporting wall, which was just a 2x4 build and notched out the joists to fit in the 10" wide beam

This house is built from lumber from the '40's and its completely different from lumber you buy today in both size, its true to size and in the strength of the wood and if it can support not only 5000 lbs of tile, but the entire upstairs along with it and done so for over 50 years I just don't think I have anything to be concerned about.

I just checked in the one spot I have access to a joist, I thought it 1x12, but its not, its 1 ½ x 12...interesting.

 

[jfh28]

I saw that beam.....thats a nice looking piece of wood.....looks hand hewn.....people will pay big bucks for that look.........you are right that the older wood has higher structural values then what we can get today......more then likely those joists were milled from old growth trees hence the higher values.......also the type of wood will make a difference......the older wood dimensions use to be truer to size......so a 2 x 12 measured 2 x 12...then it went down to 1 3/4 .....and then 1 1/2 .....and I've even seen some at 1 3/8.....sign of the times......the one thing that has gotten better is the connectors we have today......like simpson hangers.....they can really make a difference.......I've had my fair share of older houses and I don't envy you at all......haha......make sure you keep us updated with finished pics.........Jack

 

[17 Oaks]

I saw that beam.....thats a nice looking piece of wood.....looks hand hewn.....people will pay big bucks for that look.........you are right that the older wood has higher structural values then what we can get today......more then likely those joists were milled from old growth trees hence the higher values.......also the type of wood will make a difference......the older wood dimensions use to be truer to size......so a 2 x 12 measured 2 x 12...then it went down to 1 3/4 .....and then 1 1/2 .....and I've even seen some at 1 3/8.....sign of the times......the one thing that has gotten better is the connectors we have today......like simpson hangers.....they can really make a difference.......I've had my fair share of older houses and I don't envy you at all......haha......make sure you keep us updated with finished pics.........Jack

Thanks Jack. As for hangers, those joists are free, they just sit atop the Hickory beam (yes its hand hewn with wooden dowels, no iron) by weight alone. I did pre-load. When I installed the beam I jacked up the top floor under it and then cut my 3 vertical supports to an exact fit, the sit the beam on them. The 3 verticals are old cedar that came out from under a very old hunting cabin on the ranch. It was a 24 foot center joist that supported the cabin. The beam and the verticals are all free, not nailed or affixed to the house other than weight bearing.

 

[teejk]

I saw that beam.....thats a nice looking piece of wood.....looks hand hewn.....people will pay big bucks for that look.........you are right that the older wood has higher structural values then what we can get today......more then likely those joists were milled from old growth trees hence the higher values.......also the type of wood will make a difference......the older wood dimensions use to be truer to size......so a 2 x 12 measured 2 x 12...then it went down to 1 3/4 .....and then 1 1/2 .....and I've even seen some at 1 3/8.....sign of the times......the one thing that has gotten better is the connectors we have today......like simpson hangers.....they can really make a difference.......I've had my fair share of older houses and I don't envy you at all......haha......make sure you keep us updated with finished pics.........Jack

Working on old stuff probably explains why so many of them get torn down! "Level/plumb/square" should always be the rule strictly from an engineering perspective but "close enough" would work in the days of lath and plaster.

 

[teejk]

If you have never used or seen the Ditra products in use, check out some of the Mike Holmes programs (Holmes on Homes, Make it Right) - he's from Canada, but he always prefers over-engineering and above minimum code. Watching his programs over the past decade was where I first heard of the Ditra (bright orange, waterproof, waffle sheets for tile underlayment). Schluter-Kerdi (mfr of Ditra) now makes the heat mats which are another tile underlayment called HeatMat (I think), but it allows for the snap in of heating element cable for under tile heated floors.

I think Holmes was the guy that introduced me to the product also (used to be a very informative show but he has since tended to spend much more than what most people can afford but maybe that's because he gets the worst case situations like that marijuana grow house and has to start from scratch and is largely spending other people's money). Anyway, we used the Ditra here (our local tile supplier had it in bulk and supplied what we needed so I guess it is not unknown to the trade). He also led me to their shower systems that use a Styrofoam base/curb and waterproof fabric that eliminated the need for cement backer board. Besides the obvious weight advantage I was able to customize it to my application with a hand saw. I used it here when I built (4'x6' shower) and again when I gutted and rebuilt my MIL's bath. They are sold as kits that include the pan/curb/fabric/joint pieces/drain/valve and shower head gaskets. Not particularly cheap and takes some time to install before the tile goes on but I like it.

 

[mikeman1]

couple of other things i did in preparation for senior folk. i put 2 x 12 blocks between joists about 36 inchs up in wall behind toilet so i could put in fold down grab bar in future. as it turns out glad i did. also put in pocket doors so if needed to use walker it is more convenient. glad i did.

 

[teejk]

couple of other things i did in preparation for senior folk. i put 2 x 12 blocks between joists about 36 inchs up in wall behind toilet so i could put in fold down grab bar in future. as it turns out glad i did. also put in pocket doors so if needed to use walker it is more convenient. glad i did.

We did the blocking for the grab bars here also. Requires one to purchase the bars in advance and map out where they are needed... Don't forget that measurements will shift by the thickness of the added wall/tile (don't ask me why I would know that).

 

[mikeman1]

actually i just put the blocking pretty much around the entire bathroom so i wouldnt have to wrry about which I buy later on.

 

[17 Oaks]

GOOD ideas!!!

 

[teejk]

actually i just put the blocking pretty much around the entire bathroom so i wouldnt have to wrry about which I buy later on.

Some of them install at an angle. If one or more of those is in your plans, you might want to buy them in advance so you know where the blocking needs to be.