Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?)

[finn1]

Novices often equate noise with power. Ran into this years ago on pickup truck engines. We changed the air intake system to reduce intake noise. Hundreds if not thousands of hours of dynamometer and test track data showed absolutely no difference in fuel economy power, or driveability between the old, noisy intake system and the new, quiet system, other than the intended noise reduction.

Still, there as a certain cadre of customer that insisted that the new system was down on power.

I traveled to Dallas to interview one such customer. We instrumented his truck did did back to back acceleration tests, and even did fuel economy tests on the interstate between Dallas and some town up in Oklahoma. Weighed the fuel tanks before and after with both systems. Absolutely no difference, just like the original laboratory data showed.

When we were done, we shared the data with the customer. His parting comment was something to the effect of “but I can HEAR the difference in power!”.... sounds life the same thing going on here.

Claims and prejudices without data are meaningless banter, and testimonials aren稚 data, merely expressions of opinions.

 

[deserteagle71]

Many people are fooled into believing that a loud machine is faster or more powerful. I want to see dyno numbers!

That's why I posted the link to the Nebraska Tractor Tests above. They are the definitive authority for tractor data in the world. I'm surprised at how many people never heard of the extensive tractor tests done at the University of Nebraska. I was able to dig up te test data on my old John Deere but alas, the Kubota M7060 I own is one of the models they've not tested.

 

[Texasmark]

I don't have a tractor with final Tier IV emission controls....my 2016, 24 hp 2400 barely squeaked under the wire on not needing them. I have a neighbor who bought a 2016 (very well respected with the field service contract and all) 50+ hp tractor that hasthe Final Tier IV emission controls. They only come out a few times a week and their tractor doesn't get run much. They are having problems with the Regen cycle and the RPM thing you mention. Sometimes I see them out just mowing, basically around in circles to get the emission fault lights to go out.

Last year I added a tractor to my corral and deliberately bought "old school". Not sorry. Course "different strokes for differrent folks" (TV series back when), and if your tractor work and Tier IV work hand in hand, greattttttt (Tony the Tiger). My usage won't.

 

[ovrszd]

Yeah, you guys are right.

I had only ran the first 255HP machine for 8 years and 2,500hrs. I've only ran the DEF 255Hp machine for six months and 250hrs. What do I know.

 

[stuckmotor]

I'd buy used. The stories about new tractor warranties ticking away while the tractor sits at the dealer's shop waiting for repairs and all of the emissions hassles has turned me off to new tractors.

 

[Kioti Dave]

I'd buy used. The stories about new tractor warranties ticking away while the tractor sits at the dealer's shop waiting for repairs and all of the emissions hassles has turned me off to new tractors.

I would agree with stuckmotor, IF you can find a good used tractor. If you have the time to wait for the right deal, no biggie. However, when I was ready for a new machine, I spent months waiting because I was terrified of the new emissions with the tier IV. With nothing coming up, I had to take the plunge into the tier IV world. Having owned a Kioti NX4510 now for 1 year, my fears have dissipated about emissions. However if a pre tier IV with low hours came around, I would probably prefer that. For me, simplicity is best. My Kubota B7800 was simple and easy to work on. However, DON'T settle for less than what you need. Good luck in the search.

 

[MechanicalGuy]

I like having emissions on my mx5200. When I run my lawn garden tractor, a 14hp mtd, the exhaust burns my eyes and hurts me. When I run my 52hp emissions tractor, I notice no such irritation.

 

[fried1765]

I'd buy used. The stories about new tractor warranties ticking away while the tractor sits at the dealer's shop waiting for repairs and all of the emissions hassles has turned me off to new tractors.

^^^^^^ what he said!

 

[ruffdog]

I have been around the new locomotives, new D6-8 cats, and large Deere tractors with modern emission controls, and they are amazingly quiet and smoke free....and I like that. I have never seen smoke from my toolcat except a small amount when cold starting and my throat/lungs appreciate it.

 

[4570Man]

Yeah, you guys are right.

I had only ran the first 255HP machine for 8 years and 2,500hrs. I've only ran the DEF 255Hp machine for six months and 250hrs. What do I know.

I don’t think a grader that actually gets worked is a fair comparison to a 40 hp tractor that sits in the shed most of the time and only putters around half the time it is used is a fair comparison.

 

[ruffdog]

I don’t think a grader that actually gets worked is a fair comparison to a 40 hp tractor that sits in the shed most of the time and only putters around half the time it is used is a fair comparison.

I do think that is a problem with having these small tractors go through regens....they are not being worked hard most of the time. The excavator neighbor and his crew NEVER run anything at half speed. If it isn't run to the max, it ain't making money. He has never said anything about the regens and DEF fluid except to keep the tanks full.

 

[RSR]

So far I am 22 hours regen free on my tractor. My dealer was adamant that the tractor should run at least at 1500 RPM. No idling other than warm up/cool down. That was straight from the dealer.

It seems most of the emissions problems are (anecdotally) caused by running the tractor at idle for long periods of time, so it doesn't warm up, soot accumulates, and regen problems are encountered.

The concern of always running it at high RPM (other than the noise) is, I think, unwarranted. 100 hrs/yr (for a typical homeowner) on a tractor could be roughly equated to running a car for 100 hours at an average of, say, 40 mph. That would be 4,000 miles per year, which would be unbelievably low. In other words, I don't see running it at higher RPM's shortening the life of the engine. Especially as that is what it was designed to run at.

There will be a small fuel penalty, but again, that is a small amount. So, maybe I burn an extra 50 gal of fuel a year by running at higher RPM. So, that's $150/year. A small amount of the overall price.

I can appreciate how the economics of a commercial operation are different, though.

 

[ovrszd]

I don稚 think a grader that actually gets worked is a fair comparison to a 40 hp tractor that sits in the shed most of the time and only putters around half the time it is used is a fair comparison.

I was thinking about that this morning. In a day I will be in a situation where the load reduces rpms below throttle setting many, many times. Might be as high as dozens of times.

Thanks for reinforcing that point.

 

[mapper]

I replaced a ~28 hp gasser Ford 8N with a MF 1734e a few years ago. Stuff that would stop the Ford in its tracks brush hogging is no problem with the 34 hp Massey.
The only issue I have ever had with the tier4 regen is the undocumented requirement that the rpm has to be at or above1800 to run successfully.
There is very little odor and smoke from it. My neighbor has an older 50 hp International, the smoke plume and stench from it are formidable, if the wind is right I can smell it a quarter of a mile away. Really would not want to breath that in the drivers seat.
All in all I would say, Tier 4 emissions stuff has not been an issue for me at all. Having a tractor that is comfortable, dependable and starts easily no matter how cold it it or how long it has been sitting has been a joy.

 

[Trillium Farm]

Yeah, you guys are right.

I had only ran the first 255HP machine for 8 years and 2,500hrs. I've only ran the DEF 255Hp machine for six months and 250hrs. What do I know.

+1 some of the people here don't even know that there are 4 ways to measure HP and don't even question if the hp advertised is net/gross, pto or draw bar! nuff said.

 

[Jstpssng]

I replaced a ~28 hp gasser Ford 8N with a MF 1734e a few years ago. Stuff that would stop the Ford in its tracks brush hogging is no problem with the 34 hp Massey.
The only issue I have ever had with the tier4 regen is the undocumented requirement that the rpm has to be at or above1800 to run successfully.
There is very little odor and smoke from it. My neighbor has an older 50 hp International, the smoke plume and stench from it are formidable, if the wind is right I can smell it a quarter of a mile away. Really would not want to breath that in the drivers seat.
All in all I would say, Tier 4 emissions stuff has not been an issue for me at all. Having a tractor that is comfortable, dependable and starts easily no matter how cold it it or how long it has been sitting has been a joy.

Plus if I'm not mistaken you use a heck of a lot less fuel with the Massey.

 

[mapper]

Plus if I'm not mistaken you use a heck of a lot less fuel with the Massey.

That to, as well as a thigh height fuel fill rather than chest high right over the battery!

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

Yeah, you guys are right.

I had only ran the first 255HP machine for 8 years and 2,500hrs. I've only ran the DEF 255Hp machine for six months and 250hrs. What do I know.

Well, in that case, I'm totally convinced.

Scientific Evidence has been provided.

Name the make, model, year, engine and power train on this "new DEF machine".

And then lets look it up on the Nebraska Testing Site, just to see if they've rated it.

Because we all know, a single, solitary personal anecdote proves everything.

The Internet can rest now.

 

[pmsmechanic]

Yeah, you guys are right.

I had only ran the first 255HP machine for 8 years and 2,500hrs. I've only ran the DEF 255Hp machine for six months and 250hrs. What do I know.

After running the first machine for 8 years I would say that you would know on the first day with your new machine. But you would give it a break because it's not broke in yet.... By the time you've run it 250 hours/6 month's you would know for sure if it has more or less power than the machine it replaced.

Edited to add that I know a few mechanics who work in agriculture repair shops. One told me that 50% of their warranty work was emissions related. All used tractors sold out of their dealership are deleted. Another service manager from a different dealership told me the same thing.

I have a farmer friend who's trucks drive at slow speeds along side the potato harvester for about a month every fall. There was no end of problems with the emissions. Every potato truck has since been deleted. 100 extra horse power and better fuel economy is the result of deletion. Plus extra engine life because you not asking an engine to deal with extra unburnt fuel that it really wasn't designed to deal with.

Now lets talk about how a lot of you use your tractors. They are designed to work but I read comments on here about how engines and tractors get babied. I also notice tractor operators that get maybe 20 -30 hours experience a year who think they are wise enough to know better than operators who make their living using a diesel engine all day long year in and year out. It gets interesting to say the least!

End of rant but long story short. Most of you will never run your new tractors long enough to see the real degradation in engine life and performance that occurs because of emissions. If you can buy a good tractor that is pre emissions, do it!

 

[K5lwq]

I am sure there is a definite reduction in power with the different emissions systems. I don't think it is very much on smaller HP units. As HP increases the amount of loss would be more.

Anyway I just ordered a new 48 Hp tractor that claims 40 PTO Hp. The funny thing is both geared and HST are advertised as 40 PTO Hp. I know one of them is not correct. I hope to put mine on a PTO Dyno when I get it to find out what it is producing. Then I will delete the emissions stuff and will have it tested again. That should clear things up. I am sure there will be an increase to some degree but don't expect more than a few HP.