Neighbor removed my property line pin

[dodge man]

I'm all about resolving problems without going to court. Often people go to court over a boundary but that's not really the problem, but you can't take your neighbor to court for being a dick.

I'm not sure I'd move the bushes along the drive. If you want to do something to help the neighbor, get rid of the ones in front of his house. Put up some kind of low impact fence if you want to maintain the boundary. It may have moved past this point though.

 

[TCBoomer]

Once again, thanks for all the input! Like I said a few days or so ago, seeing "move the trees" in print from some of you guys really hit home. All along, over the past several years the 8" placement part has been slowly eating away deep inside my head. But understand this, other than the one time when I literally snapped and blurted out the expletives at the clueless young kid, did I ever engage in any dog fight with this neighbor or even retaliate for all his stupid games. Pissed?...yes, but somehow I kept my cool and didn't blow a gasket. Subconsciously, I felt he 'had one over me' due to the placement location of the trees along his driveway. And fearing...as much as I hate to admit that part...he could trim, cut, mutilate or whatever the trees, I chose to lay down and not fight back.

My head has been full of activity lately and I think I recognize where I left some confusion. Probably gonna do it again too lol Plus I was wrong in my last post when I said we agreed on planting 8" off the line.

Here's what I hope is a brief...yeah right like that'll ever happen lol...summary of the events start to finish.

In 96 we both agreed to my planting the Arb's ON the property line along his driveway, starting at one corner point of my property and ending at his fence line, which ran to the other corner point of my property down by his house. No problems at all for 8 years and I never once did any trimming to these trees. In 2004 I put in a new 3 acre lawn and after I finished or there a bouts, he made a comment to me about removing his fence. Don't recall exact words, but it had to do with upkeep and appearance. I then told him my plan to eventually continue my tree line to the corner by his house. I asked if he would leave the fence so it could serve the same purpose for his putting it there in the first place...keeping vehicles where they belong. He knew exactly what I was talking about with regards to idiots blowing through my field on the other end where the Arb's were. He agreed and all was well...or so I thought.

I don't want to make a long story any longer other than to say I had/still have several major projects going on and was involved deeply with them at the time. I honestly believe some of his hostility directed at me is due to jealousy. Jealous of what I've been doing with my property. This fueled his decision to rip out the fence I'm sure. He didn't like the fence anymore and figured if I could spend money elsewhere, I should also spend it on the trees I promised. 2007 arrives and he rips it out without a word to me. He broke his word plain and simple. I remained quiet wondering if he had any intention of planting something...nope, nothing. Over the next few months I witnessed countless examples of exactly what I knew would happen...idiots with no common sense! Understand this...parking or driving on my lawn isn't the end of the world, but causing damage fries my backside head to toe. You guys already know the damage tractor tires can do on turns. Guess what vehicles can do over and over in the same spot?

Several months of keeping it bottled up was my downfall. And the kid who popped my top was just a victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time...just like my neighbors parents who were out of my view at the time. Had I known they were there, there's not a doubt in my mind I would've remained quiet. The sad part though is that they had to be victimized by my outburst that was really directed at my neighbor himself. A few days after my outburst he approached me in an apologetic sort of way. He asked what happened and informed me his parents heard what I said. I apologized for the outburst and asked what about the agreement...you gave me your word? Him...that was 3 years ago. >edited to add<...When I mentioned the damage from his visitors vehicles he asked why I didn't say something to him. Say what? why should I have too? You already knew it was going to happen without the fence and even told me you saw it a few times. Why didn't YOU say something to your visitors?

Fine I thought, I see how it is and took matters into my own hands. Hired the surveyor and found out the existing trees were 8" inside the prop line along the driveway {and the perpendicular treeline was 3'+ inside...another neighbors border}. So I planted the new trees 8" off like the others, put another perpendicular tree line in, 3' off the line across his front yard and moved on. I didn't ask and he said nothing about my continuing the tree line along his driveway...8" off or not... other than his dislike for planting them across the front of his house. Early this year, after 5 years of no contact he asks me to trim them back along his driveway so he wouldn't lose the parking spots for guests. Trim what back I thought, these trees were barely 24" wide at the base. Even mentioned the fact that here you ripped out the fence for the sole purpose of wanting me to plant trees. I did and now you want me to cut them? Your flipping nuts and blew him off. Tough tulips pal...deal with it. Understand some of what I just said were thoughts and not actual words.

Did the trimming...actually thinning is the correct word. He commented a couple times about not seeing any difference. Yet others easily noticed the difference. See where this is going? He's trying to push my buttons...trying REAL hard and I keep refusing to acknowledge him and his games. Hard pill to swallow, but what choice do I have other than move the trees to a point 3' off the line. At maturity these Arb's reach a 6' spread at the base. At 3' off the line, just like the tree lines that run perpendicular to his driveway on each end are planted, I don't have to worry about them growing over the property line if I don't do any trimming.

Now I want to go back and respond to some of you individually but I'm beat, long day, so unfortunately it'll have to wait til tomorrow nite...thanks for the patience

TC

 

[edlegault]

The problem with moving the trees is that then in the future the tree-line could be considered the new property line. About the only way to do it right is to put a short fence (barb wire?) right down the property line (defines the line), then plant trees well inside your side to block the view.
Fences define property line.
Trees are for privacy.
The two don't mix very well.

 

[CBW1999]

Based on what you wrote, it does sound like unclear communicating of a lot of the aspects of this on going problem. Neither you or your neighbor have any documentation of what you discussed which makes it more difficult. With the utmost respect to both of you- each has a different idea of what should have happened when. No judgement on any actions either side has taken-

Just an idea- not sure if your area works the same way or not but- even if you are not required to get a permit, the zoneing office can be a great resource as well as a vehicle to document what you intend to do. It would be on file as public record so, if the project is something both you and your neighbor work out in mutual agreement- it could be documented that way. Depending on the situation, zoning may contact ajoining property owners with a "warning" of an application being made so they can review it or at least know it exists.

Yes it can be a pain to go that route but......

Another question- does your community have any type of mediator program for "civil" disputes? Sometimes called "Community Justice" centers or programs- they are available to help community memebers sort out problems that really don't belong in court and, before they escalate.

.... my own 2 cents- I like the idea previous about just planting new trees behind the row closest to the line. beats transplanting and the re-planting if they don't take. IMHO

 

[dodge man]

Just a thought, and I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire, but knowing how people think, he might have actually encouraged people to turn around and drive in your yard. You probably already know this.

 

[dmccarty]

I don't blame you one bit for what you did and I don't think you have intentionally escalated the situation. He knew what he was doing...

The problem I see now, is the size of the current trees and can you move them without touching his property? I don't think you can. If you do decide to move the trees, I would get it in writing that he approves of the disturbance of his land. I just don't see you can move those tress that are 8" from the property line without touch his land which is likely to lead to trouble.

The other TBN'er suggestion to plant a new set of bushes seems like a good solution. It sounds like it would be cheaper and maybe faster to do plus you don't have to involve the guy that lives next store, aka the acquaintance. We have someone who live near us and our neighbor will not call these people neighbors. Instead our neighbors call these people the acquaintances. Very sad but the acquaintances have ticked off everyone who has tried to be friendly with them.

Anywho, if you plant a new line of bushes well on our property, you won't need to deal with the acquaintance, the trees will be totally on your land, and you can forget about the health of the other, older trees. At some point, if the acquaintance kills the trees, so be it. You could also just cut down the old trees after the new ones grow to your desired height. Heck, after planting the new trees you could cut down the old ones but leave the trunks in place to protect the new trees for a few years and then go back and cut them level to the ground. That way he would have his space back and you would have your privacy and protection.

I deal with the acquaintances by dealing with them as little as possible. People that have issues like we are discussing will always have issues. We are as friendly as we can be to our acquaintances, never a rude word or gesture from us in spite of their spiteful actions and we try not to buy into the cess pool of angst they have made for themselves. The made the pool of poo, they can wallow in it all they want, but we ain't jumping into the pit of poo with them.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

Just a thought, and I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire, but knowing how people think, he might have actually encouraged people to turn around and drive in your yard. You probably already know this.

I would guess the acquaintance made the suggestion or hinted at driving on the grass.

We have had people drive past our gate and fence, past the posted signs, past the first turn around, and all the way to the house. They knew they were in the wrong place but they just kept driving. Some of these people are just not thinking, like the lone young woman in a Wrangler with a dog who drove almost to our barn. She was in the middle of no where, in a place that she should not be, with nobody knowing she was there. Very stupid. This has happened a couple of times with women. One day someone drove up and instead of turning around in one of the two very obvious turning areas, they decided to turn around in what passes for grass at our place. They came real close to getting stuck. :laughing::laughing::laughing: I really wish they had gotten stuck so I could have talked to them. I THINK I would have pulled them out for free. :laughing::laughing::laughing: Their attitude might have cost them though.

Later,
Dan

 

[Sinecure]

TCBoomer -

Thanks for sharing this story. It is fascinating to get the different perspectives of other posters and specifics around your individual situation. It is funny (as an outsider observing) how these things evolve over time.

Not that I have anything of value to offer, but here is a similar story I witnessed a few years ago that may give you some additional things to consider.

I used to live in a lakefront development. It was a new development that was slow to develop due to its rural location. There were initially only about 15 of us that built homes in the development (out of a total of 100 lots). All of the other lots were sold (so we knew other homes would be eventually built), but the 15 original homeowners had the run of the place for about a 3 year stretch. I will be the first to admit that it was great. You had the advantage of being in a development, but really didn't have a "neighbors" since none of the first 15 homes were directly next to each other or on adjoining lots.

We had a couple of new additions to the development over the years, but nobody had yet to build anything next to an existing home. Then it happened. The first home was being constructed next to an existing home. The existing homeowner was a retired professional couple - very well liked in the neighborhood. The new homeowners were a younger couple that I always thought were very nice/good people.

Long story, short - the existing homeowner had gotten used to his lot and view of the lake. He had even built outdoor patios, fireplace, etc to take advantage of this view. Once the new construction started and he saw where the new homeowner was going to place certain portions of his home, air conditioners, driveway, etc - he knew his view and what he had experienced for the last 3 years was going to change. He did not handle it well. He always claimed to me that he and the new homeowner had a discussion a year prior about where he was going to place his house on the lot. He built certain things on his lot based off this discussion. The new homeowner told me (I was actually friends with both of them) that the architect had made some suggestions and they ended up modifying their original plan.

He started to fight the new homeowner on everything - construction crew being loud, messy, blocking his mailbox/etc. The new homeowner trying to be nice and "fit in" to the new neighborhood was very apologetic - would have his General contractor meet with the neighbor weekly to discuss any issues/etc. This type of thing continued to go back and forth until finally the new homeowner cracked and basically said "F-You Old man. I can do what ever I want on my lot". The two of them almost came to blows out in the street. The police were called.

From my perspective as an observer, this was comical to watch develop. Two professional people getting wound-up to the point where police needed to be called. Clearly the new homeowner could build whatever he wanted - where he wanted to on his lot (as long as it met the development guidelines). The existing homeowner had become used to his view and was pissed things were going to change. He will still tell you to this day that he had an agreement with the new builder that was not "honored".

So now we have two neighbors in the neighborhood that hate each other. They try to be civil and would go a couple of weeks/months either being friendly or not speaking to each other. But they still had this initial dislike for each other that would continue to grow/build. After one of the more serious blow-ups, the new homeowner went nuclear and put-up what Dodge Man called a "spite fence". Basically a huge hedge down his property line that entirely blocked his neighbor's lake view. He paid big money to have mature plants brought in to do this.

The neighbor sued. The lawyers for both pushed them towards a mediator. From my conversation with the new homeowner, the basic question of the mediator was - "what are you guys so mad at? What is your main objective? What would you consider a Win? A Loss? A middle ground?"

According to him, it boiled down to the existing homeowner believing they had a deal on where the new house would be located. The new homeowner thinking - I didn't promise him anything. That then led to the existing homeowner being pissed his view was altered and then the new homeowner thinking that this guy has been a jerk doing the entire build process/etc.

Nothing really resulted out of mediation and the existing homeowner did not have a viable lawsuit. From my understanding (I moved during this time), the neighbors don't speak. Their wives are embarrased and the neighborhood still doesn't really understand how all of this could get blown into the size it escalated into. I also understand the new property owner is just waiting for his hedge to be destroyed via round-up.

So, after watching something similar unfold - I would offer the suggestion of trying to answer the question of what is it that you really want? I am not trying to over simplify things or pretend to understand your situation - so please don't take it as such. I am simply throwing these out there because I really enjoyed reading about your situation and thank you for having the courage to post it here and get other people's perspective.

Do you want to simply keep people off your lawn. That is an easy fix.

Do you want to firmly establish the property line? That is an easy fix also.

Do you want to have nothing to do with your neighbor ever again? That is an easy fix.

Are you pissed that you did something based on a conversation with your neighbor and now feel he is backtracking? Not so easy a fix, but you have to determine how pissed you are/outcomes/etc.

If you want a combination of the above, you have to decide what you would be willing to accept as a middle ground in all three.

Personally, I would have the pin remarked - plant a new line of trees (further off the property line) and be done with the neighbor for good. Also don't worry about blowing-up at the kid. There is a reason there is a stereotype of old men yelling at kids to "get off my lawn". I know I am guilty of it. :laughing:

 

[srs]

Sinecure, great post! Here's a thought on replacing the missing pin. When my neighbor had his property staked next to me the surveyor dug a hole and placed a concrete cone with rebar in the ground with just the top sticking out an inch or so. The concrete/rebar was factory made (or at least looked like it) and is fatter at the bottom so the freeze/thaw action won't work itself to the surface. And you just can't pull it out of the ground. Would need a shovel and pick. My 2 cents.

 

[dmccarty]

Good post Sinecure.

I can see both sides in your story but the existing owner was wrong. If he wanted the view, he needed to buy the lot. Unless he had an agreement in writing too bad, too sad. Why would the new lot owner agree to limit his house placement on HIS land? :confused3: I can see how the old owner would get upset, but if he wanted to keep the view, he need to buy the view. Or course, the old owner thought there was an agreement so there was going to be a problem...

Putting up the spite hedge just added to the fire but people sometimes/often cannot simply walk away in spite of the obvious consequences...

Once upon a time, there was a disturbance in city street in a bad part of town. Two men were having an issue with each other over some issue. :laughing::laughing::laughing: Officers arrived to settle the disturbance but officer's can't settle these types of issues. The men were told to walk away or go to jail. One man was told to walk east, the other man to walk west, or it was off to jail. Seems pretty reasonable? Just walk away, go home or go to jail. Seems simple. :laughing: The men turned to walk away but there was some look of disrespect from one man to the other and the fight was on. Both men went to jail. What may appear to irrational to us can be very rational to others...

Later,
Dan