Neighbor removed my property line pin

   / Neighbor removed my property line pin #181  
Sinecure, I have been working at my current job for 28 years, of which I've been a licensed land surveyor for 20 years. I've seen so many similar stories. I probably have someone come in my office once about every 2 years with such a story, and I have to hear the whole story, not just what they want surveyed.

Another thing to keep in mind, as a surveyor, I'm not anybodys advocate. That means if you hire me to survey a boundary, I located it exactly the same way as if your neighbor hired me to do it. A lawyer will be your advocate. You may have a terrible case, but if you pay the lawyer, he will take it and be your advocate.
 
   / Neighbor removed my property line pin #182  
A couple of words for you -

Visual Easements.

:)


Too bad your HOA or whatever (community) did not cover that. Eh?

TCBoomer -

Thanks for sharing this story. It is fascinating to get the different perspectives of other posters and specifics around your individual situation. It is funny (as an outsider observing) how these things evolve over time.

Not that I have anything of value to offer, but here is a similar story I witnessed a few years ago that may give you some additional things to consider.

I used to live in a lakefront development. It was a new development that was slow to develop due to its rural location. There were initially only about 15 of us that built homes in the development (out of a total of 100 lots). All of the other lots were sold (so we knew other homes would be eventually built), but the 15 original homeowners had the run of the place for about a 3 year stretch. I will be the first to admit that it was great. You had the advantage of being in a development, but really didn't have a "neighbors" since none of the first 15 homes were directly next to each other or on adjoining lots.

We had a couple of new additions to the development over the years, but nobody had yet to build anything next to an existing home. Then it happened. The first home was being constructed next to an existing home. The existing homeowner was a retired professional couple - very well liked in the neighborhood. The new homeowners were a younger couple that I always thought were very nice/good people.

Long story, short - the existing homeowner had gotten used to his lot and view of the lake. He had even built outdoor patios, fireplace, etc to take advantage of this view. Once the new construction started and he saw where the new homeowner was going to place certain portions of his home, air conditioners, driveway, etc - he knew his view and what he had experienced for the last 3 years was going to change. He did not handle it well. He always claimed to me that he and the new homeowner had a discussion a year prior about where he was going to place his house on the lot. He built certain things on his lot based off this discussion. The new homeowner told me (I was actually friends with both of them) that the architect had made some suggestions and they ended up modifying their original plan.

He started to fight the new homeowner on everything - construction crew being loud, messy, blocking his mailbox/etc. The new homeowner trying to be nice and "fit in" to the new neighborhood was very apologetic - would have his General contractor meet with the neighbor weekly to discuss any issues/etc. This type of thing continued to go back and forth until finally the new homeowner cracked and basically said "F-You Old man. I can do what ever I want on my lot". The two of them almost came to blows out in the street. The police were called.

From my perspective as an observer, this was comical to watch develop. Two professional people getting wound-up to the point where police needed to be called. Clearly the new homeowner could build whatever he wanted - where he wanted to on his lot (as long as it met the development guidelines). The existing homeowner had become used to his view and was pissed things were going to change. He will still tell you to this day that he had an agreement with the new builder that was not "honored".

So now we have two neighbors in the neighborhood that hate each other. They try to be civil and would go a couple of weeks/months either being friendly or not speaking to each other. But they still had this initial dislike for each other that would continue to grow/build. After one of the more serious blow-ups, the new homeowner went nuclear and put-up what Dodge Man called a "spite fence". Basically a huge hedge down his property line that entirely blocked his neighbor's lake view. He paid big money to have mature plants brought in to do this.

The neighbor sued. The lawyers for both pushed them towards a mediator. From my conversation with the new homeowner, the basic question of the mediator was - "what are you guys so mad at? What is your main objective? What would you consider a Win? A Loss? A middle ground?"

According to him, it boiled down to the existing homeowner believing they had a deal on where the new house would be located. The new homeowner thinking - I didn't promise him anything. That then led to the existing homeowner being pissed his view was altered and then the new homeowner thinking that this guy has been a jerk doing the entire build process/etc.

Nothing really resulted out of mediation and the existing homeowner did not have a viable lawsuit. From my understanding (I moved during this time), the neighbors don't speak. Their wives are embarrased and the neighborhood still doesn't really understand how all of this could get blown into the size it escalated into. I also understand the new property owner is just waiting for his hedge to be destroyed via round-up.

So, after watching something similar unfold - I would offer the suggestion of trying to answer the question of what is it that you really want? I am not trying to over simplify things or pretend to understand your situation - so please don't take it as such. I am simply throwing these out there because I really enjoyed reading about your situation and thank you for having the courage to post it here and get other people's perspective.

Do you want to simply keep people off your lawn. That is an easy fix.

Do you want to firmly establish the property line? That is an easy fix also.

Do you want to have nothing to do with your neighbor ever again? That is an easy fix.

Are you pissed that you did something based on a conversation with your neighbor and now feel he is backtracking? Not so easy a fix, but you have to determine how pissed you are/outcomes/etc.

If you want a combination of the above, you have to decide what you would be willing to accept as a middle ground in all three.

Personally, I would have the pin remarked - plant a new line of trees (further off the property line) and be done with the neighbor for good. Also don't worry about blowing-up at the kid. There is a reason there is a stereotype of old men yelling at kids to "get off my lawn". I know I am guilty of it. :laughing:
 
   / Neighbor removed my property line pin #183  
Water front property is expensive for a reason, everybody wants it and there's not enough of it to go around. If you don't pay for it, you shouldn't expect to get it.
 
   / Neighbor removed my property line pin #184  
I am originally from an area with a large lake located along the Missouri River. The lake area is well developed. A person built a cabin (Cabin A) that blocked another persons cabin (Cabin B) view that was located at a higher elevation. The cabin A that was built had an unusually high roof that seemed a bit out of place. Long story short after years of litigation, the cabin's A roof had to be torn off and a lower roof constructed to not block the other landowners view (Cabin B) of the lake.

Both of these cabins were located along a bluff over 1/4 mile away from the actual lake.
 
   / Neighbor removed my property line pin #185  
Dodge Man - It is amazing how people (Everyone is guilty of it) can take certain issues that look small to outsiders and blow them up into things that just continue to eat away at them until they are a full-blown conflict. We all have our various buttons.

After we moved from the lake, we bought rural acreage. Based on what we had seen happen with our neighbors around the lake, we went looking for property where you could not see a single neighbor or anything similar. The property had to have a large tree buffer around it that "shielded" it from all other surrounding homes/etc. Not having bought rural property before, I was surprised at the number of parcels we had to look at until we found one that met this (and other) requirements.

The way properties have been chopped up over the years - this is getting harder to do. We did this simply to avoid any potential issues similar to what TCBoomer is experiencing.

DMccarty - I agree. The existing homeowner was clearly in the wrong. The thing was that he honestly thought he had a valid point. It did not matter what anyone tried to tell him. As in your example, it was something that he was not going to walk away from.

TCBoomer - I am not trying to Hijack your thread. I just wanted to add a similar story. Thanks again for posting yours.
 
   / Neighbor removed my property line pin
  • Thread Starter
#186  
I believe you planted American Arborvitae, also called Northern White Cedar

Transplant now if you stll can.

Don't do it yourself because of the learning curve although you could.

You do need to water the first couple years.

By the way, a tight cedar hedge is 4 ft on center, no more and no less. Great time to adjust spacing. Maybe 3' to 4' off the line is a great idea but that's up to you.

EDIT--You know, you could also just plant another row of trees and cut the first ones down in a year or so. Maybe prune while the others grow. Cedars grow really fast and it just takes a few years for six ft. You can buy 3 ft tall plants from a nursery for a couple dollars each and plant those. We start them in pots for the first year and transplant in August. 100% survival rate that way.

Great info in this post sixdogs...thanks! I edited out some of the quote to keep it short

Your on the money with the American Arborvitae...aka: Thuja Nigra Spent the better part of this year learning all I could when I decided to tackle the trimming last spring. The current mature ones were only 2-3' weeds when planted in 96 and over the years I paid attention to their growth habits. Combined that with what I learned and I have more than enough confidence to move them now. I've transplanted big Arb's in the past but only a few and didn't have much concern if they died. With these it's a different story...keep your ears on and eyes open as I hit pay dirt with the transplant and will explain more soon.

Interesting that you say 4' spacing. All 300 of these are at 3' spacing and it seems to be a good number, especially for quick fill/privacy...which was my #1 goal for planting them in the first place. Yet now that the mature ones are at 20'+ tall with a 6' base spread, I can see first hand that a 4' spacing would've worked too and might have been better. But it took 16 years for them to get there too...

I appreciate the suggestion for planting a second row, but not something I want to do. Maybe where you are you can get them at that great price, around here not so much. Especially if you want quality and quantity...I looked prior to purchase. Another reason is crowding...planting a row next to the existing ones would shade one side and limit growth.
 
   / Neighbor removed my property line pin #187  
You buy them mail order for a couple dollars each for 30" trees and they show up at the front door. Plant pots in early spring and water with some fertilizer. Here we water them nearly every day that it doesn't rain. Then in August when the plants are fully established and won't fall over we slit the pot off and plant. Every one should live this way and they get a much better start. I can PM more on that.

I have a couple rows of cedars and other evergreens where I planted rows in front of existing rows and will take a couple pictures tomorrow to post. Even if you move them I like the idea of an additional row for better aesthitics. It gives a "layered" or tiered look to the planting that frames the yard in a more dramatic fashion. I might have some pictures of that as well. More later.
 
   / Neighbor removed my property line pin
  • Thread Starter
#188  
To TCBoomer I'll give you a little more input based on the rest of your story. I'll make a couple of points, and please don't be offended by what I say. Through my work, I run into an amazing number of stories that are similar to yours. Something that starts as a fairly simple dispute between neighbors degrades into something that almost seems to an outsider like two kids having a fight. Throwing dog crap in your yard, not the first time I've heard of that.

As far as you planting bushes up against the line, I've heard of a term called a "spite fence". A spite fence is where someone puts up a fence just to spite a neighbor. It doesn't serve any purpose except to tick them off. There was a famous one in San Fransisco as I recall during the late 1800's, where someone put up a spite fence that was several stories tall. The person had tried to buy up an entire block but one person held out. The owner of the rest of the block put up this really tall fence to block this person is. I'm not saying you putting up the bushes was designed to spite your neighbor, buy I can see how he would feel this way. You can make the point that you did it to keep people off your lawn. You could have done the same thing by putting up a fence or something else that didn't block his view as much.

Another point to make, some people have a different perspective on yards and living in the country. You have a yard that many would love to have and it looks great. Some people would never dream of driving on the grass in someones yard in town, but out in the country, they think it doesn't matter. I'd say your neighbor and his guests have this attitude. They just don't respect the fact that you have a nice yard and its important to you.

If I were to be honest, I'd say you have done some things to escalate the bad feelings between you and your neighbor, but in legal terms, I don't really see you having done anything wrong. When these things turn sour, I tell people they had better be ready the suffer the results, both in terms of the financial cost and emotional. It seems like you and the neighbor are 1 incident away from landing in court.

'Spite fence' while self explanatory, it's the first time I've heard the term. I may have implied I planted them in spite, but the sole purpose was privacy and windbreak. Sure I did say I wanted to block this guy out and there's a reason for it too.These neighbors are nosey as sin and reminds of my days when I rented a condo before owning this home...your on center stage 24/7. He confirmed that by his comments in regards to several of my projects...some of which were rude IMO. Oh well...to each his own. Around here it's not uncommon for a hedge row like mine to be planted at the boundary. In fact there's 3 other properties within this small subdivision with a similar layout and hedge location. If my planting across his front yard is perceived by him as a spite fence, so be it. Actually I feel it's more of an unintended consequence if anything. Granted at one time I only planned to continue the tree line along his driveway, but his actions forced me to want 100% privacy. It's a dream come true the way it is now and will be the even better in a couple/few more years when their 2nd floor windows are blocked by the trees. I wasn't exaggerating in an earlier post when I mentioned him/them using binoculars.

For the sake of conversation, what else did I do in your opinion to escalate the bad feelings? I know my outburst was one, but...
 
   / Neighbor removed my property line pin
  • Thread Starter
#189  
there is a book around called The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker that deals with defusing and de-escalating situations.

I saw some reviews about it and it got my attention, thanks for the suggestion! I plan to look for it at my local library or purchase one
 
   / Neighbor removed my property line pin
  • Thread Starter
#190  
I think I would enjoy the privacy those trees give and not having to look at another person's house. And that's whether I like the neighbors or not.

Thanks for the vote of confidence as I feel the same way. Probably a little jaded now after what I've had to deal with, but...100% privacy is priceless
 

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