Neighbor's road repair...

[sanmigmike]

Neighbor\'s road repair...

Well, here I am in wet Oregon with a new L3830 with a combination loader bucket and 72" box blade. Neighbor saw the new tractor and wants us (me) to fix his gravel road.

There are some parts of it that are so bad that the newspaper guy will not drive on it. There seems to be some gravel somewhere, I brought some up playing with the blade on my road. But there are no traces on his drive until you get below the surface. The potholes get up to almost four feet in dia. and about eight inches deep. Right now full of water. So many holes that in some areas you just have to chose which ones to hit and which ones to avoid, you cannot miss them all!

Reading here it seems as if I will not be able to do much if anything until it is not so wet. If I read things right I will need to scrape or box blade or use the scarifiers to "remove" the pot holes and then big gravel and then smaller and then smaller to lock things. Am I missing something?

Also, how will I be able to get a crown on the road?

My drive has river run, smooth rock about three inches plus on it with it sinking into the dirt (amost gone in some areas). Smooth that and then medium and then smaller to lock things?

The road in front of my place has a little gravel left on top and when I scraped at it I got a fair amount of three quarter to one inch stuff. I think I read something about using the box blade to turn it and get the gravel back up on top? Should I get a rake and or a back blade?

My wife wants to know if we start to dress this mess with rock, will it all just sink-in because of the wetness of the base?

Any ideas and or suggestions will be most appreciated.

Thanks,
Michael

 

[BigAl]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

Hi Mike ,
Working a gravel road is tough in the winter . I would wait on your neighbor's driveway or it might cost you a friendship at least if not a lot more! If you break through the "Hard Pack" layer of the road ,you will have a muddy mess and it will cost big bucks to fix it now ! It is best just to temporary fill the pot holes with purchased crushed rock and "live with it" until the conditions are better for grading . Your wife is right .
River Rock is the worst rock you can place on a road . It sinks and does not bind . Try crushed rock for a proper job . It will lock together and does not sink as badly . Use your 3ph linkage adjustment on your box scraper to angle your box for creating a crown on your road . There are some very good threads on proper grading of gravel road ,if you do a search .This was discussed about three weeks ago here on TBN.
By the way , enjoy your new tractor !
Big Al

 

[btolle]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

I agree with BigAl, wait for dryer weather. Start trying to work it now and you will mix a lot of mud with whatever rock is there and end up with a bigger mess than you already have.

Unfortunately, gravel roads tend to sink deeper and deeper into the mud over time and the only real cure is to add more crushed gravel to it.

Putting the crown in a road is one place where a straight blade is much better than a box blade. Box blade tends to pull the material along with it while a straight blade turned at 2 angles will push the material up from the side of the road towards the center. It will also help create a ditch on the side of the road to carry the water off.

By 2 angles, I mean that the ditch side of the blade should be lower than the crown side (this angle determined by the adjustable link on one side of your 3PH) and the blade should be angled so the ditch side is closer to the back wheels than the crown side.

There is also a third angle involved which is determined by the top link. This angle determines how deep you cut into the gravel. It's not as complicated as it sounds, if you are not familiar with straight blades go look at one and you will see the adjustments I am talking about.

If you are going to be doing much work it would be worthwhile to buy a straight blade, they are cheaper than a box blade.

I used to maintain a gravel road with one it it worked very well but I did have to add some weight to it so it wouldn't just skip over the top of the gravel. Mine was a 4' and I bolted to old auto engine heads to the back of it for weight. Happened to be what I had laying around handy at the time.

Sounds like your weather has been like ours. We are at 80" of rain for the year. 3/4" yesterday and more expected today. Our average is 55" a year here in East Texas.

Bill Tolle

 

[MarkV]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

I agree with the others that now you will just mix more mud with the existing gravel and have a bigger mess. It would not hurt to add some gravel to get you by now though. You are in a pretty wet area of the country so you might want to consider using a road fabric when you redo your drive. It is similar to the weed block fabric you buy at the nurseries but is wider and stronger. What it will do is keep the gravel from being pushed down and still let the water pass through. It is kind of expensive and would require totally redoing the gravel but will save you on gravel over the years.

MarkV

 

[Youare]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

I am on the other side of the country so I don't understand what type of soil conditions you have to work with there. I agree with the advice of waiting until the ground dries out before any major ground work is done.

The only way to deal with pot holes is to remove them completely. What usually causes them is standing water on the road surface that get driven through, the water movement first splashes the fine material off that area. The rest is just more of the same and water starts to flow through that area and makes a bigger hole.

A quick fix is to fill the holes in with larger crushed stones and course sand. Then it is necessary to get the water to flow off the road, do away with any area it can puddle by making a "crown" for the water to flow off to the sides. Along with this there must be ditches on the low side of the road for the water to run in until it can be channeled away from the raod completely.

If you have a mud problem there is a special fabric that is made for dirt roads. You should remove at least 6" of the road surface place the fabric over the mud and bring the road back up with 6" of good draining fill. The fabric is supposed to allow water to pass down through it. It also creates a larger pressure bearing area over the softer mud, but more than this it creates a barrier to keep the mud and gravel from mixing together.

Proper grading for water removal and ditches to channel the water away are still necessary and essential for a long lasting dirt road.

Randy

 

[Varmintmist]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

There are different ways to remove potholes, depending on why they are there.

If it is a clay deposite, then its hoe time. Dig it out to where you can get 3B (3 in) stone in for a base and then add 2B modified to level. Thats probably the best way. Or you can just keep dumping on till it stops sinking in 10 years. Thats how most of us do it. Eaiser than trying to find every clay hole.

2B, 3B, and 2B modified are limestone terms (mostly) there is a match for your area if there isnt limestone. 2Bmod is 1-2 in stone with manufactured sand (choke) added and will tighten up real well when compacted. If you ask for choke, ask an old guy, the youngsters probably wont know what the heck you are talking about. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If it is just a washout hole, water collecting and tires pushing, then dig it out some to get a good base (6-8 in) and fill with 2b mod. Correct the drainage.

If the drive is as bad as you say, then you might as well get a triaxel of 2b mod to start with and just fill the holes for the winter. At this point that is the way I would go.
Regrade it this summer and add more 2b mod, think big trucks, about a ton for every 10 feet or less if there is no coverage at all. That would be a skim coat.

Renting a vibratory roller for a weekend and beating the snot out of the drive, regradeing it and beating it again. would be a good thing, however it might depend on how much he wants to spend.

Get good with the bucket, blades will draw the heavys to the top, the fines filtering down. That leaves you with loose stone on the top. You need to use the blade to get it smooth, just dont overdo it. If there is enough stone there, a boxblade might be better. You can carry a load with you as you move, keeping the fines with you. Dont know, dont have a boxblade. I do have a few years on a grader though and know you can over work a drive. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

That said, it is a lot of work for a tractor. A skid steer, a small grader and a roller would be the ticket. I'd do it with a CUT though /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Heck, you are right there /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Providing I like the neighbor, or his wife is a good cook.

 

[PBinWA]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

I've found that filling a pothole in an older well used road with just crushed rock will usually end up making a bigger pothole.

You would need to have some serious compaction to get it all to stick. What works for me and goes against all other people's recommendations is to fill the whole with crushed rock and then cover it with some thick mud that is not too wet. the mud will stick the rocks together better and keep them from moving around too much. If the hole is really deep then mix up a batch of crushed rock with the mud and fill it with the combination.

This works well for big holes that need to be patched in the winter. I've had amazing luck with it.

If the existing road is old enough it is largely just rock pressed down into dirt/mud anyways. If the road is fairly new then just used the crushed rock. This technique is for old well worn roads.

If the plain crushed gravel isn't working then try this technique.

 

[LarryD]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

Well I'm just a little north of your location and I don't think we've had three straight days of sun in a couple of months. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I had to do a little road repair myself, although the holes I filled were only 12" across by 2"-3" deep, there is no way I'm going to roll the road over this time of year. I just overfill the pothole with "dirty 5/8"" so the water runs around it.
I'll probably cut and roll the top 2"-3" this summer and add a couple of inches of crushed to that. Figure that will hold up for a few years.

 

[hazmat]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

A primer on gravel roads for your veiwing pleasure

maine camp roads (pdf)

Enjoy

 

[LBrown59]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(
What works for me and goes against all other people's recommendations is to fill the whole with crushed rock and then cover it with some thick mud that is not too wet. the mud will stick the rocks together better and keep them from moving around too much. If the hole is really deep then mix up a batch of crushed rock with the mud and fill it with the combination.

This works well for big holes that need to be patched in the winter. I've had amazing luck with it. )</font>

My 40 froot drive way culvert clogged up and caused the water to go around the culvert which in turned undermined the concrete apron causing it to collapse leaving a big dip to drive through going in and out of the driveway.
One of the first projects I did with my bx23 after I got it in Sept was to fill in this dip.

It needed to be filled about 8''
I hauled enough dirt with the FEL to raise it about 2 or three inches.
I then packed it down some by driving all over it with the tractor.
Next I add about 2 or 3 inches of slag and smoothed that out with the FEL.
A couple of weeks ago I added another couple of inches of dirt packed that down then put 2 or 3 inches of slag on top and smoothed it out.

So far it's been working fine.
Sure don't miss that dip or the sound of the bottom of the car dragging on it going in and out of the drive way .LOL!

 

[DaveinVa]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

Michael,

I live less than 1500 feet from a harbor on the Chesapeake Bay. My land is 5 to 8 feet above sea level. Gravel or oyster shells sink below the surface rapidly on our saturated land. I put in a 1500 foot road to the barn and I used the road fabric with a base of broken up concrete. Worked great. Water passes through and the concrete and rock stay in place. The fabric cost me about $.80 a foot if I remember correctly. The fabric was 12 feet wide and so easy to handle that my wife and I completed the job in very little time.

Dave

 

[rameye]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

Hazmat,

thanks for posting that document....it's just what I've been looking for!

I have a driveway that is nothing more more than a black diamond trail /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif...this will help.

Rameye

 

[Currmudgeon]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

There are two keys to making a good gravel road; getting a good subgrade and good drainage.

First the drainage. A gravel road needs a way to get the water off the road and away from the road. Usually, this means crowning the doad and ditching the edges. The ditches sgould be deep enough to be below the top of subgrade, so the subgrade can be drieds out. The ditches need to be carried to someplace where they discharge, or all you have is long ponds or frog habitat.

This is the hard part, as it's not always easy to figure out how to get the water across the road and away from the road. It may take a lot of work, but it's worth it. In the case of too many amateur built roads, the road is the watercourse, and it's a losing battle.

If you don't get the water off the road and out of the subgrade, the material will become soggy and turn to mud. You will then have a stone-eater.

The subgrade is the dirt under the gravel portion of the road. It should be dry and firm. If you build a gravel road on bad subgrade, traffic will tend to pound the stone down into the mud. You're filling the ocean with a bucket, in that case. The ocean always wins.

There are many ways of stabilizing lousy subgrade, from building graded filter layers over it, to modifying it with tilled-in lime. The simplest way is probably to put down geotextile filter fabric and build the gravel road on top of that. The fabric keeps the rock out of the mud and vice versa.

You'll need about six to eight inches of well graded stone to make a decent road. Less than that, and it's very difficult to grade. Call the County Engineer and find out what they use for road stone. There are many different names for the same stuff. The gravel pit can tell you, too.

Individual potholes can be fixed by undercutting to kinds solid material, installing geotextile, and backfilling with road stone. Place it in 8 inch lifts and compact each lift. For massive fills, the three-inch stone is a good way to go, with road stone on top. Many contractors consider it a panacea for bad spots. It's also usually a bit cheaper than road stone, as the gradation isn't so critical.

You will be amazed at how many yards of stone a road will swallow.

 

[hazmat]

Re: Neighbor\'s road repair...

<font color="blue">thanks for posting that document....it's just what I've been looking for!

I have a driveway that is nothing more more than a black diamond trail ...this will help. </font>

You're welcome. Be sure to keep it hush hush - we don't want the state of maine to find out that non-natives are using their information /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[sanmigmike]

Long time since I have been here. The neighbor turned into Frankenneighbor, on another thread. Anyway on his section of the road in the past three and a half years he has scraped the top, unable to really do much and hand thrown some gravel in the bigger (3 feet dia, and larger) holes which as you might guess comes right out. Our section is in good shaped.

Yesterday the forecast didn't seem too wet so I went out and broke down some jumbo potholes and smothed some things out on the section of the road closest to our property. Neighbor on the other side, has complained about this section and so has the fire department, our Range Rover doesn't scrape across it but almost everything else does and it is rough.

Anyway got it looking a little better and of course since then it has been raining. Poor drainage so that area is partlialy flooded (part of the whole problem). So when it dries out will try to hit it again.

Since is is a low spot and his section of road tends to be low, not built up and not crowned or sloped I would guess the long term idea might be build up that area a lot or run a culvert under the area that is slightly higher and gets water on the uphill area standing on the side and on the road?

I was waiting for him to come out and yell at me since I was working on what "he claims" is his property. However he is growing grapes on my property and has said about four different things about it starting with "No I am not" to "the other owner let me do it!" The people on our otherside still do not understand that he is using their land to grow grapes. I was going to tell him that I kind of thought it was my land and if it isn't, have it surveyed and marked...just what he told me to do. LOL Funny thing is that when I first met him he told me that he really respected and valued property rights...what he really meant is that he values his rights and screw you.

The other thing I learned is that in our area you need to have a permit to do anything besides residental farming...forestry on our respective bits of property. Wholesale wine bottles is not either one. The county guy asked if I had been getting the yearly permit renewal letters. Not in three and a half years. No permit for that use (or anything else aside from it being FF land), a violation in the past for improper use. Also to get a permit off road parking for employees on at least gravel and limits on traffic and size of trucks. So code enforcement will be taking a look at it and since the county already has had trouble with him at another near by location as well as this location (stuff not on the terms of his permits) I think they understand how to deal with him.

Funny thing is that if he was being honest and ethical I would not care about his business so by being a jerk he will be dealing with the county rather than me... All I was doing was just trying to get along.

Any I guess now I need how to get better drainage to keep that part of the road dryer. The pity is seeing his section of the road going from poor to horrible when mine has stayed good to great with little real effort or expense on my part.

 

[shvl73]

Its too bad to have creeps for neighbors. If you are sure of the property line and can find the boundry markers, I'd be tempted to run a line between them to show the property division, then take the tractor with cutter attached and help him out by mulching his grapes.
Good luck.

 

[tallyho8]

The pity is seeing his section of the road going from poor to horrible when mine has stayed good to great with little real effort or expense on my part.

You might not like what I have to say, but in all fairness, this is how it seems to me.

Your neighbor "A" uses his section of the road but does not use your section "B" or your other neighbor's section "C".

You use your section "B" and your neighbor's "A" section but not the "C" section.

Your other neighbor uses his "C" section of the road plus your "B" section and the "A" section.

Since your neighbor "C" is the only one who uses his section of road, it should stay in good repair and he is the only one who should pay any upkeep on it.

Since you and your neighbor "C" are the only ones using your section "B" of the road, then the 2 of you should be responsible for maintaining it.

Since all 3 of you use section "A" of the road, all 3 of you should be responsible for maintaining that section, not just neighbor "A".

Remember, neighbor "A" is the one who has to put up with all the inconvienience of having the other 2 neighbors drive up and down the drive past his home all the time and he never drives by yours.

Neighbor "C" should pay for maintaining all of section "C" of the road, 1/2 of section "B" and 1/3 of section "A", equaling 11/18 of the total cost.

Neighbor "B" should pay for maintaining 1/2 of section "B" and 1/3 of section "A", equaling 5/18 of the total cost.

Neighbor "A" should pay for maintaing 1/3 of section "A" equaling 2 /18 of the total cost.

Regardless of the terms of an ill-conceived and poorly written agreement, this is the FAIR way to divide the costs of maintaining the drive. Each neighbor paying for his pro-rata use of the drive. I don't blame neighbor "A" for being reluctant to pay for maintaining 2/3 of the drive that he never uses nor more than 1/3 of the part of the drive that all 3 of you use.

I speak from experience when I say this because I have a similar situation where I own house "A" and "C" and another neighbor owns house "B". This is a sad situation created by poor future planning when family attempts to divide family land for family usage and not expecting family members to sell to outsiders in the future. You can save your grandchildren a lot of misery if you divide your land properly, creating public roads which will be maintained by the county, with no easements to encroach on future generations. Easements and private roads ALWAYS wind up causing friction between neighbors as some always feel that they are paying more than their fair share, being inconvienienced more, and not agreeing with the others on how to maintain the road.

The neighbor growing grapes on your property is a completely different situation that has to be handled differently, and should have no bearing on this driveway situation.