New CK2610 : rough running/clanging engine, cold and hot

[ptsg]

Those "obsolete" mechanical engines are sill available out there in plenty of applications and HP.

My 2017 Branson uses a mechanical engine. In fact, Branson uses mechanical engines at least up to 75 HP. That's part of the reason on why it's so easy to take the DPF out of these tractors. There is no computer tied into it.

It also burns super clean and I have yet to see smoke coming out from it other than the start up of course. It won't even smell and it's very good on fuel.

 

[WillardinMaine]

Like I said, the obsolete mechanical engines are still available in low power applications, which typically run sixty or so hours annually, so, if that痴 what you want, go for it. No need to defend that personal choice. I imagine there re even a few engines above 25 hp that are using credits to prolong the market availability of the old technology, albeit I don稚 know who those manufacturers are.

I think that is it with me. My guess as I am a couple weeks still away from delivery of the tractor is 50-100 hours of use a year. So even on the high end that is 2000 hours after 20 years. I want to keep it simple and proactively avoid future expensive repairs. Certainly on a tractor used commercially with high annual hours, I could see the benefit of the advanced engine systems. I just don稚 want to be depending on the sensors, computers 10,15,20 years out.

Apples to oranges I know, but my car says I average 35mph driving so 2000 hours works out to 70,000 miles. When I was looking for a diesel truck, the Ford and GM engines you mentioned were two I was looking to avoid. I would not have worried about them seeing 70k miles

Appreciate yours and everyone elseç—´ input as I try to stay open to learning more.

Edit: why does the forum code think I am writing in Russian or some such language if I use a contraction?

 

[MichiganIron]

This is truly interesting. The CK2610 Engine (3A165) has been in production since 2006. Been a great engine for the KIOTI Brand, and uses all the same technology that everyone loved for years. EPA Tier IV was implemented on Off Road vehicles in 2014, forcing the engine manufacturers to develop the Common Rail DI Engines. For years, we had people begging us for anything that still had the Tier III engine with the Mechanical Indirect Injection Engine. Now that the Tier IV technology has made it's way through the market, it appears from the discussion here that Tier IV stuff might not be all that bad???

You can please some of the people some of the time, but.......

From our experience here, they have both proven themselves to be good reliable engines...

 

[Industrial Toys]

I know the FORD 8N was a reliable tractor. Many years has shown that. Funny, how that time frame is ever shrinking as far as what time frame people believe constitutes reliable. If you are going to sell me whatever, that has such a limited lifetime, then please sell it to me at disposable prices. I hate being told that my five year old electronics are obsolete!

 

[finn1]

This is truly interesting. The CK2610 Engine (3A165) has been in production since 2006. Been a great engine for the KIOTI Brand, and uses all the same technology that everyone loved for years. EPA Tier IV was implemented on Off Road vehicles in 2014, forcing the engine manufacturers to develop the Common Rail DI Engines. For years, we had people begging us for anything that still had the Tier III engine with the Mechanical Indirect Injection Engine. Now that the Tier IV technology has made it's way through the market, it appears from the discussion here that Tier IV stuff might not be all that bad???

You can please some of the people some of the time, but.......

From our experience here, they have both proven themselves to be good reliable engines...

I知 pretty sure That either AVL in Plymouth or FEV in Auburn Hills did she design and emission development for Kioti in the early to mid 2000 time frame, probably AVL, but I can稚 remember for sure.

I know that their engineers were spending a lot of time in Korea around that timeframe.

I don稚 know much about Kioti痴 engine history, but the basic layout and design attention for NVH attenuation , ie crankcase structure, etc looks pretty modern on my 4010. It would be typical of a manufacturer with a heavy investment in an engine transfer line to design a new, emission compliant engine that salvages as much existing tooling as possible, ie bore spacing, camshaft location, ets.

Itç—´ a pretty big job to upgrade an IDI engine, though, as firing pressures on a DI, especially a turbo DI, are much higher, requiring upgrades to the entire structure and rotating mechanism.

If indeed the 2510 engine is an IDI ( Kioti doesn稚 speak to that in their brochures, but the short oil drain intervals certainly point that way), I wonder at which point maintaining a separate IDI configuration becomes unsustainable.

Fuel system costs for example are volume sensitive, and the entire developed world, with a few exceptions, has moved to common rail.

As to TierIII /Tier IV fears dissipating with time, nobody wanted automatic transmissions, power steering, or power brakes when I was a kid. Mi remember the debates. Later it was electronic ignitions and catalytic converters. All those are commonplace and accepted by all but the fringe now.

Not at first, though.

 

[finn1]

I know the FORD 8N was a reliable tractor. Many years has shown that. Funny, how that time frame is ever shrinking as far as what time frame people believe constitutes reliable. If you are going to sell me whatever, that has such a limited lifetime, then please sell it to me at disposable prices. I hate being told that my five year old electronics are obsolete!

No problems getting electronics for a 1994 F350. If there’s a market, someone will step in. That’s what’s great about the future.

Not many new tractors being sold with 8N technology, though, are there? The 8N died in about 1953 when the much improved Jubilee was introduced.

 

[mangler]

No problems getting electronics for a 1994 F350. If there痴 a market, someone will step in. That痴 what痴 great about the future.

Not many new tractors being sold with 8N technology, though, are there? The 8N died in about 1953 when the much improved Jubilee was introduced.

Live hydraulics (which is a great feature) and bit more HP. Funny enough, fast forward 45 years, and the "new" live hydraulics are more troublesome than the old school hydraulics on the 8N

Either way, if my current tractor has half the parts support the 8N and the NAA still enjoy after 45 years, I will be ecstatic.

 

[WillardinMaine]

No problems getting electronics for a 1994 F350. If there’s a market, someone will step in. That’s what’s great about the future.

Unfortunately some parts are getting real hard to find for my Saab.

 

[finn1]

Saab went through a series of bankruptcies and ownership changes. Hard to find parts for a 61 Stude, a 68 Checker or a 79 Alfa, too.

Unfortunately some parts are getting real hard to find for my Saab.

 

[The Fred]

Went to a friend's place today and they have a new CK4010HST. Temps were about 62 degrees f and the tractor started cold (no glow plugs needed) with zero smoke or rough running, a perfect start.

This is the difference between new and old. The new stuff rocks, no smell, better startability, better fuel consumption, smoother running. Everything is much better than the old technology, until it breaks.

Then out comes the credit card.

 

[ishiboo]

Sounds normal to me as well.

I don't have a CK2610, but my Deere 1025R definitely sounds like yours and I'm on my second. The small diesels are not as refined. (Of course, they also have no particulate filter to stop the smoke) My NX was MUCH quieter and smoother, and I anticipate my RX will be the same.

 

[DK35vince]

Makes me feel a bit better, mine does sound like that. Her's mine starting "cold". I still think she's extra clangy.

[video]https://drive.google.com/file/d/11MJQsw8iT-9CrHV2Bxb76SCdhh12AGoI/view?usp=sharing[/video]

Sounds fine to me.
My 2001 DK 35 sounds about the same for the past 19 years. (2270+ hours)

 

[PhilipRuff]

Sorry to bring this back to life but I was in the same boat as the OP. Tractor was bought in September and the more I drove it the more I thought it smoked at start up, almost a bluish, gray, white cloud that would fill the garage. What is interesting is that the temperature was slowly dropping with my starts too so I began to think the glow plugs or preheater were my issue, rather then glazing or a leaking valve seal. I troubleshot it all the way back to the relay where it’s not getting the 12V input voltage to the coil. The relay was bench tested with a spare battery and meter. The output to the coil is controlled by a controller that I assume only actuates the relay at cold temps? I don’t know how cold that has to be but it didn’t fire this morning at 40F. Another test I did was take the wife’s hair dryer and take the intake boot off and blow some hot air in while starting, this eliminated all of my smoke and rough start(clanging). The glow plug and preheater relays are under the dash on the left side. The one closer to the outside is the glow plug relay where the inside one is the preheater. I might try to just cut in a switch for driving the preheater relay or take it to the dealer and get it covered under warranty. Just figured that this might help someone else that is having similar issues. With their new Kioti CK2610, mine is currently sitting at 30 hours.

 

[Goober2]

Well, mine is about the same vintage as yours and sounds just the same. As you've probably heard from others and experienced yourself, it does smooth out as it warms up and definitely has some happier rpm ranges where it is even smoother. I live in norther Idaho where we get sub-zero temps occasionally and it still sounds about the same.

 

[hornett22]

Great to have the explanation from Michigan Iron as to source of the sounds, I did not have a clue. I already had made a sound recording yesterday, so here it is for reference anyway. I filmed the exhaust as others had mentioned excessive smoke on start up of their new tractors. For what it's worth, Toukow

Sound Recording Cold Start Kioti CK2610HST - YouTube

Sounds fine to me.

 

[Boss 302]

Based on what I'm hearing, that is normal sounds sweet to me.

 

[ksbrdmkr]

I usually wear foam earplugs and earmuffs to cut the noise down on the cs2410 to the nh55. The new Holland is especially noisy with its' 3 cyl engine.

 

[mangler]

Make sure the induction pre-heater is working (at the intake manifold entry). Makes a huge difference at cooler temps. Throw an amp clamp around the wire they draw 30 plus amps when they are working correctly.

I disconnect mine in Summer by removing the fuse. You'll know it's right if the tractor idles a bit higher after 20 seconds or so, the lower idle when first started is because the alternator is trying to power the induction heater and putting a load on the engine.

View attachment 658134

A bit of a necropost, but I finally have a few minutes to investigate...

I still have a hell of a time starting cold. Just checked my manual looking for the air pre-heater fuse, and the closest I can see in the manual is a 25A fuse labelled "fuel pre-heater". If this is the correct fuse, and the air pre-heater draws 30+ amps, i can see why this circuit is problematic... Of course no spare 25A in the fuse box either. I'll have a look tonight at that fuse and put a clamp on the feed wire. She is nice and cold so there is no question the preheater would /should get turned on.

 

[mangler]

Edit. Put a clamp ammeter on the air pre-heater wire, and got 0amps with the key in glow plug heating position. I expect that is not normal.

From the crappy supplied manual it seems the fuse is a "slow blow" and may? be near the radiator, in a special little plastic enclosure. Driver side one is labelled "Charging power fuse", and the passenger side one is labelled "Preheating power fuse". Preheating sounds right, but is this specific ones for glow plugs? Air pre-heater? Both? Will be asking Santa for a shop manual...

 

[etpm]

Edit. Put a clamp ammeter on the air pre-heater wire, and got 0amps with the key in glow plug heating position. I expect that is not normal.

From the crappy supplied manual it seems the fuse is a "slow blow" and may? be near the radiator, in a special little plastic enclosure. Driver side one is labelled "Charging power fuse", and the passenger side one is labelled "Preheating power fuse". Preheating sounds right, but is this specific ones for glow plugs? Air pre-heater? Both? Will be asking Santa for a shop manual...

Is your amp clamp made for DC? I ask only because I have seen more than one person use an amp clamp made for AC on a DC circuit, and of course got a zero amp reading.
Eric