New Driveway and Polebarn

[rswyan]

Rimshot,

Thanks for your reply and input.

I'm in the process of erecting a small pole barn myself. I made sure however to haul enough fill sand to provide a favorable grade for the floor and to provide a positive flow away from the building. Perhaps you were not able to do that but just hoping your grade is high enough also.

Actually, I was able to do that, more or less ...... there was grade away from the building for some distance (5' or so) on all sides after it was completed.

However, what the real issue is, is due to the pad being (significantly) below the surrounding area and the amount of slope coming towards the north and east sides of the building, this allows sub-surface water/moisture to flow through the ground (hence the need for the french drains)

The evidence of the above is that while the ground inside the barn on the west and south sides is always bone-dry dust ..... the (dirt) floor on the east and north side inside the barn is always (somewhat) damp.

I never have any standing water inside the barn itself - so it's not flowing in there on the surface - just "wicking" up from the sub-surface.

One thing that I didn't mention earlier in my recent posts is that I'm planning to install a french drain inside the barn itself, along the east and north walls (probably 5' to 8' in, from the wall itself)

I mention this because you noted that your grade was, "building pad was cut into a bank"

Well, with hindsight being 20/20 , the more ideal solution would have been to backfill the entire area - pad and approach to the building - so that it was entirely above grade. This would have required massive amounts of fill, compaction, etc. however ....... but it would have been a solution to the moisture issue .... and would have provided some additional benefits ..... as well as some downsides.

I priced several pole barn packages prior to purchase. To make the price cheaper I suppose, every provider included a treated sill board specifying above grade. I don't care for that.

Me neither.

Since I wanted to screed the concrete floor directly off the top of the sill board the outside grade will probably touch this sill board. Since this area may be in contact with the ground I figured it should consist of .60 ground treated lumber even though it costs a bit more. I have seen that .40 stuff fail in less than 10 years when used for ground contact applications.

Thanks - good info.

I actually sourced the additional skirtboard that I am installing from Carter Lumber for the very reason that the boards were rated for ground contact (Lowes didn't carry ground contact rated PT lumber, and I can't remember whether Home Depot did or not - but I don't think they did)

However, after doing some research and reading, I became enlightened as to how even "ground contact rated" didn't necessarily mean "ground embedment rated" .....

And I believe that the "ground contact" lumber I got from Carter was only rated .40 ..... not .60 .... hafta check that.

I don't think one should count on visquine to provide much protection over the years because it treats the effect and does not address the cause.

I suppose that, in a way, one could say the same of any pressure treating used on lumber (treats the effect and not the cause)

Your point above is exactly why I was considering adding 1/2" thick expanded polystrene on the outside of the skirtboards - the visqueen sheeting while acting as a moisture barrier, will likely degrade over time. The 1/2" EPS being much thicker, may degrade to some extent or another - but due to the thickness, may serve to function as a moisture barrer for much longer.

Eventually, when the concrete apron is poured surrounding the barn, the EPS would itself be about 1/2" below grade (concrete surface) and the skirtboard would be surrounded on three sides (sides and bottom, top open) with EPS.

 

[rswyan]

Eddie,

Thanks for your comments - and thanks for your prolific postings on Lake Marabou .... they have served as an inspiration (I was following that avidly .... but at this point have some catching up to do, due to my long TBN absence)

That picture of your "helper" and your tractor sure makes the building look HUGE!!! It's a heck of a project.

It is huge .... the footprint is actually larger than our home

When we were initially looking at doing this we were considering a 30' x 60' building .... when I compared the price difference between that and 42' x 72' it wasn't all that significant and I made the executive decision (since I wasn't getting much input or participation from others on the entire project ) to go with the larger size. Inspite of catching a good bit of flack for doing so, I have absolutely no doubt that it was the right decision - especially now that I've seen the amount of crap we've been able to stuff in it ...... even though it isn't complete.

Thanks for the updates and good luck on getting it done before the weather changes on you.

Thanks - I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to get the needed drainage work, grading, and seeding done before it gets bad ...... although we may end up eating rice and beans for a while ... :laughing:

Finishing up the interior is going to be a longer term project .... time and money ... :confused2:

 

[rimshot]

<<Well, with hindsight being 20/20 , the more ideal solution would have been to backfill the entire area - pad and approach to the building - so that it was entirely above grade. This would have required massive amounts of fill, compaction, etc. however ....... but it would have been a solution to the moisture issue .... and would have provided some additional benefits ..... as well as some downsides.(RSWYAN)
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Fair enough because as you mention it is not always practical to place a building iin the perfect spot. I suppose the best solution is as already mentioned divert the water around the building with 4" perforated pipe. Be certain the pipe is placed below floor level. Sounds as though you would be able to simply run it from the high graded side of barn to daylight or stubbed out hill side where the water can run away. Good luck with your barn.

rimshot

 

[5030tinkerer]

If you're worried about your PT rotting, would it be an option to excavate the earth out a bit, set up the drainage you wrote about beneath the boards, and then backfill up to the board with gravel?

Regarding the use of EPS for its insulatory value, consider whether you want to stick with the 1/2" stuff or go to the 2" (Formular 150 would be fine) for its R10 value. If you move ahead with heating your floor, the surrounding earth will love to suck those BTU's right out of your slab at the edge. For that matter, considering insulating under the slab with that same R10 (though that get's pricey, especially considering that you'd want to stick with the Foamular 250 product for its 25psf weight rating).

On the PEX, don't make the mistake I did in my home. Be sure to use oxygen barrier pex unless you've already priced out the pumps and heating source and found it cheaper to get SS componentry there to save the $$$ on the pex. Also remember that slab reaction times are way slow. For that reason, I put in a vent-free fireplace connected to the propane tank to get things inexpensively heated up fast while waiting for the floor to catch up. I wish I had gone with a vented unit on hindsight, but those puppies are way more money.

I was very glad I put 6 mil plastic atop the compacted 1" clean gravel but under the Foamular 250 before the concrete went down. My slab never wicks moisture like the old house used to.

It's an amazing project you've got there. I hope to get at least whatever footings are necessary for my 50x100 metal building up before winter hits (see other thread). We'll see, though.

 

[rswyan]

Well thus far today we have managed to avoid any excessive rainfall - the amount that has come down was just enough I believe to settle the dust and create ideal working conditions in a day or two or three, as far as grading and compaction is concerned. There were a couple of standing puddles when I checked a couple of hours ago.

However it doesn't look as though our luck is going to hold out - the rain just picked up (pouring now), and we have a huge line of large thunderstorms headed our way, with a possible tornado about 20 or 30 miles southwest of us ..... fortunately for us, it appears to be headed due east.

On the upside, I don't currently have any open trenches - BTDT - and it ain't pretty.

 

[rswyan]

Folks,

Sorry for the lack of acknowledgement/delay in replying - we've been going hard at it, trying to get this stuff completed before the weather gets really bad .... :confused2:

Last time I attempted to do this drill, it was about a month (or more) later in the year, I got hit with bad weather (wet weather + cool temps = no drying = impossible to work in a mud pit) .... and I got in too big of hurry.

Everything was going pretty well this time around ...... until about 5 AM this morning - when I was awoken by the sound of thunder and a torrential downpour

I haven't been over to the barn yet ...... but provided we don't get an all day soaker, I think I still might be ok - given how dry it has been over the last couple of months.

This time around I adopted a little better procedure: always start at the lowest point - so that the trenches can drain ...... and make sure to check your trenching as you go, to ensure proper slope - so the trenches will drain :thumbsup:

The above principle is the difference between a minor inconvenience .... and a complete freakin' nightmare ....

I should know in about 24 to 36 hours how bad it really is.

This is how things looked at 4:30 yesterday afternoon (outer drain trenches):

 

[rswyan]

Good help is so very hard to find ......

 

[rswyan]

Rim,

Fair enough because as you mention it is not always practical to place a building iin the perfect spot. I suppose the best solution is as already mentioned divert the water around the building with 4" perforated pipe.

Short of raising the building .... yeah, that's probably the only practical solution.

Be certain the pipe is placed below floor level.

Actually, some of it will be ..... and some of it won't be ....

The system I'm putting in consists of several runs of perforated line ..... three of them actually ....

One "run" of pipe is further away from the barn, and outside the other two. This outer run surrounds the building on three sides, with the high point of the line being in the northeast corner, draining to both the west (to a catch basin) and to south (to daylight, below the building pad)

On the north and the east sides, the outer trenches (which are connected) vary between 2'+ and 5'+ deep .... and neither of them is below the level of the floor. The trenches here will act "collector" or "interceptor" drains - they will function to collect both groundwater and surface water/run-off - before it runs down the slope immediately adjacent to the building pad.

Just a comment about the "lay of the land" a little further out from the barn: to the east, the land slopes very gently back towards the barn ...... the slope back west towards the barn is so slight that there is very little surface runoff coming towards the barn from any distance away. The more distant ground here (50' out) to the east stays relatively dry - probably due to the fact that it is heavily wooded (trees sucking up the moisture)

The ground to the north is a different matter however - it is also heavily wooded - for about 100 yards to the north - and after that a fenced pasture .... but the slope (down towards the barn, from the north) is probably twice as much as it is coming from the east. If the east is a 1% slope back toward the barn, then the north slope is probably 3% to 5%. Under already wet conditions, or very heavy rain, there can be significant surface runoff from the north.

Both of the above trenches are roughly 20' to 25' out from the building, and the gravel in them will come close to the surface, and then be filled about 6" of topsoil (as opposed to being capped with clay)

Closer in, on the north and east sides, about 8' to 10' from the building, there will be two additional (connected) trenches with 4" lines. These both will be below floor level (18" to 24") and the gravel (enclosed in geotex fabric) will be capped with at least 12" of clay to prevent intrusion of surface runoff into the subsurface soil.

Immediately above these "inner" french drains, in the same trench, there will be a 4" solid line - with multiple surface drains, to remove any standing water that might accumulate from runoff. The downspouts for the gutters are also tied into these 4" solid lines. The north end of the 4" solid lines will drain to the catch basin.

The third and final french drain lines will actually run along the north and east walls, 8' or so inside the building. These will be 18" to 24" deep and capped with 8" to 12" of clay.

On the south side of the pad (where grade slopes away from the building) all three of these french drains tie into a 6" perforated french drain line, which ties into a 6" solid line, that drains to daylight below the southwest corner of the pad, in the same place where the catchbasin drains to.

I would have actually liked to place the drains inside and immediately adjacent to the building a little deeper - but I didn't have enough elevation change to do that and still maintain at least a 1% slope on the trenches.

Sounds as though you would be able to simply run it from the high graded side of barn to daylight or stubbed out hill side where the water can run away.

See above

Good luck with your barn.

Thanks !

 

[rswyan]

I suppose I was lucky .... only had one small area of trench collapse .... current problem is with the weather over the past couple of days since (cool, mostly overcast) the trench bottoms have not dried out and as of yesterday were still pretty mucky ........

Hope they are dry enough to work in them today .... so I can get them closed up .... before more rain hits tomorrow and Sunday ...

Well that didn't happen .... probably at least 2" to 3" of clay muck in the trench bottoms ... at this point it looks like I'll be filling them back in and taking a stab at it next year ..... doubtful if we're going to see enough warm temps again this year to get it to dry out .....

I'll stake the corners of the trenches, so that when they are re-dug it will hopefully be alot easier than the original digging in undisturbed soil (I hit lots of rock and shale the first time around)

This illustrates one of the difficulties with renting equipment to do a job - when I rented the mini-excavator it was originally to be a one day rental (over the weekend, pickup friday afternoon, return first thing Monday morning) .....

On Monday when the unit was due back, I was not done with all the trenching - and was beyond two days rental in terms of hours I had put on the machine over the weekend - so I called the rental place first thing Monday morning to see about converting the day rental into a week rental. Was told the equipment was promised out first thing Tuesday morning and I absolutely needed to have the machine back no later than close of business Monday afternoon.

Since I still had alot of trenching to do, and the weather forecast was relatively) good (rain in the forecast, but only a 1/4"), and I only had the excavator for a limited amount of time, I pushed to open up as much trench as I could - and opened up over 150' of additional trench - rather than completing and closing up the trench I had open.

About 3:30 Monday, I get a call from the rental place and am told that the customer who had reserved the equipment for Tuesday had cancelled, and the machine was now available if I wanted to keep until Friday.

So I went ahead and kept it ...... for several reasons: 1. the rain in the forecast was minimal and not supposed to last indefinitely, 2. I had trenching to do inside the pole barn (gas and water supply lines, and drains), which I could do, even if it was raining, and 3. had more trenching still to do outside.

Monday afternoon we managed to get 30' of 6" solid line installed in the low end of the trench and get that closed up. Tuesday the rain started and the forecast morphed - in less than 24 hours - from a prediction of a 1/4" of precipitation ...... to 1" to 2" ..... or more .....

Great ....

The nice thing about undisturbed clay though is that while the top surface might get a little muddy, go down an inch or so and the soil is essentially dry (or at least not totally soaked mud )

Later in the week, after the rain had stopped, I excavated another 95' of trench on the east side, close to the barn, and my son and I managed to get the french drain (fabric, gravel, and pipe) installed for that run.

Day or so ago, the bad weather returned and we've had low pressure system sitting almost directly over us for better than the last 24 hours. It started raining on and off yesterday afternoon, and by 5:00 PM it had become steady.

The wife and I did manage to glue up the solid lines for the surface drains that will go in the same french drain trench that my son and I did the other day, and today we'll get that laid in and backfilled, and get that one closed up (finally some completion on the horizon !)

And I have managed to get a bunch of other stuff done, including running the solid 4" line from downspout at the southwest corner and getting it tied into the 6" solid line, and clearing the excavation spoils from an area I have to get to, to fix the area immediately adjacent to the north side of the barn.

I also created a large pile of clay from the various locations where it had been excavated - and then got it tarped before it got any wetter than it was - this is good because it's moisture content was about perfect for compacting.

Unfortunately this low pressure system is moving real slow and still hanging around ... the forecast is for at least some rain over the next several days ....

Oh well ..... what are ya gonna do ? :laughing:

Pics to follow later.

 

[rswyan]

When we originally prepped the building pad we ran a 2" gas line and 1" water over to it, inside the building perimeter. These were bedded in a couple of feet of sand, with the gas line on top, and the water line on the bottom (to get the water as deep as possible, to prevent freezing - once the rest of the line is laid and the final grading done, the water line will be at least 4' to 5' deep.

Until yesterday these lines had remained buried, with their ends sticking up just inside the middle bay garage door.

I used the mini excavator to open up the trench and cut two branch trenches off the main trench - one, outside the building, to the wall between the middle overhead and man door, where the riser will be located ...... and the other inside the building, to the wall area where the stationary tub/washer/dryer will be located.

The water line is a little on the short side, length-wise at the pole barn end .... but will probably be fine. The gas line is more than long enough at the pole barn (probably by at least 10' to 15') ..... but is short on house end :laughing: .......

Since both lines are bedded in sand (which is probably pretty wet at this point), I'm hoping that I can put a chain on the gas line and pull it with the tractor, to gain some length at the house end. The gas line seems pretty heavy - way heavier than the water line.

At this point, only about 30' to 40' of both lines are buried (where they cross the approach/driveway to barn), so it's not like I have to try to pull the entire 200' of it through the ground.