New Fuel Injector Pump leaking?

PlowinFields · Jun 19, 2015

Just had my Injector pump replaced on my 2007 Kioti CK25. After reading about the debacle from many others who have had the same problem and not getting anywhere with Kioto customer service, I decided that I'd just pony up the pennies and buy a new one, since I don't really have the know how to repair them and I don't really need a 3000lb garage decoration. Dealer told me it was a 2 hour job roughly to install it but they had it almost a week and a half. I got a story that they ordered the wrong pump. Well, they finally dropped it off this week and after less than 2 hours of loader work with it pushing her around 2200 RPM, I noticed it's leaking fuel pretty badly around one of the 3 injector heads. Does anyone have any idea why it would be leaking here?

The good news is that the dealer said he'll send over a mechanic tomorrow to check it out. It seems to be leaking fuel on only one of the three lines, but it's enough to cause puddles on the ground after she was idle for 5 mins. After shelling out $1800 CAD, I'm not really impressed at all.

dfkrug · Jun 19, 2015

Hopefully, just a loose fitting on the injector, but it may have been cross-threaded when
the mechanic put it back together.

PlowinFields · Jun 19, 2015

So those lines just screw directly into the FIP? Gosh, I hope it's not a cross-threading problem on the pump's threads, it's brand new!!

Coyote machine · Jun 19, 2015

Wow! Sorry to hear of your troubles. What exactly was the old IP doing that it needed replacement and at what hours on the clock?
Hindsight is 20/20, but if you have a similar problem in future please come to the Kioti section of TBN and post the issue. We'll see what we can do to save you some money, instead of having to shell out for a complete new pump. We have some good pump rebuilders who can repair these pumps effectively and economically.

Your dealer's work should be warrantied so I wouldn't worry too much about what the problem is. It could be just a loose fitting they didn't tighten enough. The fuel is under tremendous pressure as it enters the injectors so keep clear until they fix it. It can enter your skin/eyes and cause serious damage.
Let us know the outcome, and please share what the symptoms/ process was leading to pump replacement.

PlowinFields · Jun 19, 2015

Initially, it started taking longer to roll over before it would start. Then it started taking a few attempts to get it to start and then one day, it whirled over and over and wouldn't start. That's when I called the dealer and he sent the mechanic up. They're only a short distance from my place so it's pretty convenient. The mechanic checked all the various routes the fuel takes along it's travels, and then tried to move the pin inside the FIP. He said it was jammed up and concluded the FIP must have gone. I suspect it was the broken teeth issue that everyone else had been experiencing. Once the mechanic left, I started doing my own research and that's when I came across this website and read about all who experienced this very problem on this forum (wow you guys are super helpful community!!).

I thought about getting it rebuilt, but I'm not very mechnically inclined and I really wasn't comfortable with tackling removing the FIP myself. Plus most of the rebuilders mentioned on the forums were States side (I'm in Canada), so I wasn't sure about the customs etc. I figured buying one new was probably my best bet, but I was also shocked at the price. The work is definitely warrantied so I'm not too worried about it. It's just the hassle is all. Thanks for the heads up! I definitely won't be running it again until they have a look at it.

ritcheyvs · Jun 19, 2015

Fields, Not the best time to say this, but your problem symptoms are not typical of the IP failures we have seen here on TBN. Typically, the tractor is running normally, shuts off normally, and will never start again. A "frozen" IP rack pin (i.e., it won't move) is typical of this IP gear failure but the stop solenoid must first be retracted (or SS removed) before you try to move the pin. If the tractor ran normally (once it started) you probably didn't have a fuel system problem. Did it start OK after the engine was at operating temp? Hard cold start but OK hot start is more typical of a glow plug problem, which can be caused by the key switch or a relay, as well as the actual glow plugs.

But that's all water over the dam. Fixing your current leak should be trivial unless threads or a seating surface is damaged. Either way, the dealer needs to fix it.

Coyote machine · Jun 19, 2015

Yeah, Scott, I too was thinking about the described symptoms while replying to another thread and it didn't really sound familiar as to a bad IP.
Here's what I want to know from Fields: When you were trying to get her to start, are we talking first start of the day, (cold)? What would happen if you did get her to start? Would she restart hot with no trouble? If not, how would you get her to restart after having warmed her up and then going to restart after sitting for some amount of time?

As an aside, but all part of hard starting conditions, recently I've noticed more often that my DK-40 will not start when I go to start, after it's already to op temp. I will turn the key all the way to the right and she will crank fast, but it is immediately apparent that she is not going to start. If I try again without winding the key all the way back to key insert/removal position it will repeat the same fast crank no start routine. However, if I wind all the way back to key removal position and try she does crank normally and will start. That also seems weird, and I'm wondering if this is going to help narrow down the sometimes look at the key switch, sometimes it's the relay, sometimes it's some other part of the ignition start sequence.

And I wonder if this might have been Field's symptoms, which then got diagnosed as a bad IP?! I'd be curious to see if there is a new lift pump installed on his tractor too? And if the fuel filter was changed before or after the IP was swapped out?

ritcheyvs · Jun 19, 2015

Coyote, One thing that occurs to me is the pull coil relay for the stop solenoid. When you turn the key from dead off to on, a timer (in the display unit, I think) puts out a one second pulse that activates the SS pull relay, which in turn delivers the high current to the SS pull coil for one second. You have to turn the key switch all the way off to restart this sequence. If the pull relay contacts are marginal it might not deliver enough current first time/all-the-time to retract the SS plunger. I read at least one LK owner discovered (after buying a new solenoid) that his SS relay was rated at 30 amps while the pull coil drew, like, 36 amps. His no-start problem went away after replacing the glow relay with one rated for 40 amps.

If the injectors weren't getting any fuel, that would explain the lively cranking but no start.

One easy thing you can do is listen after a no-start when you turn to key back to off. If the stop solenoid is working right you should hear that distinct "clack" when the key gets to "off." If you don't hear that sound the stop solenoid plunger probably didn't get retracted by the pull coil. The fact that it works sometimes points more to the relay than to the actual coil or display unit (or wherever the timer is).

A no-glow problem would have some of those symptoms but an engine at operating temp should start even without glow.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Coyote machine · Jun 20, 2015

That sounds about right. I don't recall hearing the clack at the end of the key off sequence. I'm pretty sure turning the key off resets whatever is 'wrong' in the circuit to begin with. It could be something like dirty relay contacts, or some other simple thing.

And this is where the OP's issues come into play. Say he has been experiencing similar issues with his start circuit wiring. He could be cranking as I have against the function of the circuit and thus getting no start condition. The mechanic diagnosis it as bad IP teeth and then the dealer orders up an IP. They install it, (poorly, I might add), and in the meantime figure out, back at the shop, it has nothing to do with the IP, and further diagnose over the week they have it in house, the actual cause is the relay, or timer, or whatnot. They change that out too, and the OP is none the wiser. In order to know for sure, or at least more likely what happened we need more input from PlowinFields.

TJP89 · Jun 20, 2015

Coyote machine said:
That sounds about right. I don't recall hearing the clack at the end of the key off sequence. I'm pretty sure turning the key off resets whatever is 'wrong' in the circuit to begin with. It could be something like dirty relay contacts, or some other simple thing.

And this is where the OP's issues come into play. Say he has been experiencing similar issues with his start circuit wiring. He could be cranking as I have against the function of the circuit and thus getting no start condition. The mechanic diagnosis it as bad IP teeth and then the dealer orders up an IP. They install it, (poorly, I might add), and in the meantime figure out, back at the shop, it has nothing to do with the IP, and further diagnose over the week they have it in house, the actual cause is the relay, or timer, or whatnot. They change that out too, and the OP is none the wiser. In order to know for sure, or at least more likely what happened we need more input from PlowinFields.

That's just bad business on the part of the dealer, if that's what happened. I'd be thinking of a new dealer after this.
The bad IP problem has been on the DK series, not the CK, so this isn't a typical Kioti IP issue.

CM, I sometimes try to just straight start my CK when I think it's at op temp, but isn't, at which point I get your same symptoms until I glow plug it. Too cool of a temp might be your issue, unless you've already proven that's not the issue.

Coyote machine · Jun 20, 2015

TJP89 said:
That's just bad business on the part of the dealer, if that's what happened. I'd be thinking of a new dealer after this.
The bad IP problem has been on the DK series, not the CK, so this isn't a typical Kioti IP issue.

CM, I sometimes try to just straight start my CK when I think it's at op temp, but isn't, at which point I get your same symptoms until I glow plug it. Too cool of a temp might be your issue, unless you've already proven that's not the issue.

TJP89,

I've been theorizing so far, since we don't have further input from the OP yet. You're right the IP issues have been largely DK and not CK series tractors, BUT the IP's are likely not that different between the two series, though I don't know that to be a fact.

Thinking things through on my rig, I remember that recently I've had some issues with the range control and it's microswitch telling me one thing on the dash and another on the actual shift lever. When this is out of sync I sometimes have to place the shifter in say high range to get the tractor to be fooled into thinking it's actually in neutral. When this happens I will go to crank the engine and if it thinks it's in gear it will start to crank and immediately and abruptly shut off the starter from cranking. Then I 'fool' it to think it's in neutral and it will crank and start.
This error could be tied into the fast crank when warm dilemma, but I'm not certain of that either.

BTW, when the fast crank, (without glow plugs being used) occurs, as soon as I return the key to off, then back to crank, it almost always starts, so I'm fairly certain it is warm enough to not have to do the fast crank/no start routine unless something is wrong in the circuit; which gets reset when I go to key off, then back to key crank the second attempt to start.

I'm certainly in agreement that if the dealer swapped out the IP without it being the cause, (and I'm NOT saying that is what happened), just speculating on their, "ordered the wrong pump" routine, then that would be cause to leave them behind, after dealing with them about it.

And some of what I've been describing with my machine crosses over to the OP's, depending on what actually happened with his symptoms/diagnosis.

So, OP, where are you? We need your help in getting you up to speed!:thumbsup:

ritcheyvs · Jun 20, 2015

What's done is done, I guess. As long as the dealer actually replaced the IP (even if it was good) I don't think Fields has recourse unless Canada has such laws. But If I were him, I'd ask for the old IP to be returned to him. Maybe it's still good and certainly it is repairable and has some good parts that could be used in another IP.

For TJP, both CKs and DKs have had this broken IP gear problem.

DK35vince · Jun 20, 2015

TJP89 said:
The bad IP problem has been on the DK series, not the CK, so this isn't a typical Kioti IP issue.

News to me.
From what I have been reading here over the years the 2005-2008 CK models were every bit as prone to the IP gear failure as the DK.

ritcheyvs · Jun 20, 2015

Coyote machine said:
...
I'm certainly in agreement that if the dealer swapped out the IP without it being the cause, (and I'm NOT saying that is what happened), just speculating on their, "ordered the wrong pump" routine, then that would be cause to leave them behind, after dealing with them about it.
...

CM: You may be onto something here. If the SS plunger didn't retract when the key was turned to on, the mechanic could have been fooled into falsely thinking the IP rack was jammed because the SS spring still held it firmly in the full aft position. You may recall that several other owners on TBN physically removed the SS for this test to ensure it wasn't interfering with the IP rack (and also to ops check the SS by applying 12v directly).

Coyote machine · Jun 20, 2015

Ritcheyvs,

You stated better than I did what I'm getting at. That's exactly what i'm thinking, especially because of their taking a week and saying they ordered the wrong IP. Now, again to give them the benefit of the doubt, because I do NOT know exactly what happened, but it would be a logical explanation, and the fitting leaking on the pump steers me toward the POSSIBLE lack of skill set of the dealer mechanic(s) in diagnosis and followup repair. Experience in diagnosis of faulty IPs is, I suspect somewhat of a highly trained tech, not a mid-level replace parts after diagnosis guy, so again I wonder what level tech was sent to do the diagnosis. The point we're making about the Stop Solenoid retracting or not and functioning or not as designed, could, IMO, be missed when troubleshooting a no start condition. And I thing at this point a fair amount of techs/dealers may possibly jump to the conclusion that some no start situations point to the IP when further specific rule out tests need to be performed before the IP is chosen as the culprit.

TJP89 · Jun 20, 2015

DK35vince said:
News to me.
From what I have been reading here over the years the 2005-2008 CK models were every bit as prone to the IP gear failure as the DK.

I have only seen DK commonly, I know the CK has had problems too, but I thought they weren't as common as the DK. I believe most of the DK series have a 4 cylinder engine, so wouldn't the attendant fuel systems be different? Correct me if I'm wrong, but almost all the IP pump issues I've read were on the DK.

Also, the first thing I did when I heard about the CK, was to come to TBN and search CK35 problems. The only thing I found was the key switch issue, and the DK IP issue. If I had seen a massive CK IP problem, I would have been MUCH more hesitant about Kioti. In my time reading here, I have not found (IIRC) any threads in which a CK injector pump went just like the DK.

Edit: After reading ritcheyvs link, it appears I am wrong, as CKs appear to actually be in the majority. Guess I have more archive reading to do. Luckily my CK is a 2013.

Coyote machine · Jun 20, 2015

No, the DK-35 is a 3 cylinder, the DK-40 4 cylinder. The IPs are prone to failure, period. The rack teeth failure is most predominant in all cases, regardless of the series of tractor. Have you read the database link that Ritcheyvs posted earlier?

Noticed, you just added to your post above and are now up to date with the actual data. Noteworthy is the fact that searching some things on TBN have at times proved somewhat fruitless, which may be why you didn't find what you were looking for on the CK series rash of failures over a number of years of manufacture. Also noteworthy is the fact that Kioti does bring about fixes to certain issues like failed pumps. They may take some time to effect the changes, but they do seem to want to have satisfied customers overall. JMHO.

TJP89 · Jun 21, 2015

Coyote machine said:
No, the DK-35 is a 3 cylinder, the DK-40 4 cylinder. The IPs are prone to failure, period. The rack teeth failure is most predominant in all cases, regardless of the series of tractor. Have you read the database link that Ritcheyvs posted earlier?

Noticed, you just added to your post above and are now up to date with the actual data. Noteworthy is the fact that searching some things on TBN have at times proved somewhat fruitless, which may be why you didn't find what you were looking for on the CK series rash of failures over a number of years of manufacture. Also noteworthy is the fact that Kioti does bring about fixes to certain issues like failed pumps. They may take some time to effect the changes, but they do seem to want to have satisfied customers overall. JMHO.

Yup, I have learned something new now:thumbsup: I do agree that the TBN search tool could be better, although I believe it has been improved.

Enough of my hijack though, hope the OP gets things straightened out.