New Pond

[s1120]

$$$

I want a house first!!!

Michele (Paul's wife)

 

[Thomas]

oops.. /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
I agree w/ you Michele.

Thomas..NH /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[s1120]

Ya, Ya, I know

Paul Bradway

 

[MarkV]

Michele,

That is a house with a big barn, isn't it?/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MarkV

 

[dmccarty]

Michele,

You and Paul need a tractor first. The tractor will allow you to do the jobs that will allow the house to be built. That is what I told my wife and what I'm doing with my, errr, our tractor.

The house can't mow, dig, lift, drag, or push but a tractor can! Get a tractor!

HalfSeriously,
Dan McCarty

 

[Thomas]

/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Thomas..NH /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[Bill_in_MI]

Harv and Larry,
I don't consider myself an expert by any means, but I have been doing the pond management thing for about 10 years now. My pond is small by any standards...about 100ft in diameter and less than 10 ft deep in the center. It's in a natural low spot in the front of the house. It was a real eyesore when we moved in (probably still is to some folks) and my wife wanted to have it filled in. That would have been tough because it also is spring fed (only to the point of keeping it full--no running outlet) as I found out when I pumped it down once. It re-filled in a couple of days. I run the 1/3hp diaphragm pump aerator year round. It cost only pennies per day. Keeps the oxygen up and the pond from icing over in the winter. The gas exchange is important to the health of the fish. Pellets are about $20 a bag for 40 lbs and one bag feeds my population (roughly 200 fish) for a couple of months. The bass do not eat pellets as they are strictly predators. So, yes, you have to be careful in adding fish to be sure they are of a size not to be dinner for the existing species. Usually not hard to manage as most species are available from fish farms in varying sizes. I estimate that I put a couple of hundred bucks a year into the pond, including the occasional shot of algae and weed control products (fish, animal, and human safe) when needed.

To Harv's question, my pond sources recommend up to 1200 fish per acre...more if the pond is well aerated and has no weed infestation problems. Trout, bass, bluegills and catfish should co-exist well according to what I have read and experienced if they are classed correctly for size to my earlier point. I tried trout for awhile and contrary to what many believe they will survive in warm water...mine gets into the mid-70's in July...but only if the oxygen is kept continuously high. And I mean continuously. I lost power in a storm for a few days and delayed in putting my aerator on the generator for just two days. Lost all of the trout. They grow like crazy...about an inch per month in warm weather...but I decided they were a little delicate for my situation.

This is a little long winded so I'll stop. Attached a pic of me and one of my pets. I was kind of grubby that day, pausing for a little fishing while doing some yard stuff, but it gives an idea of the pond and the 'gills.

PS My 4-in-1 bucket is being installed by my dealer today. Can't wait to get it back and start fooling around with it.

 

[s1120]

>>Michele,

That is a house with a big barn, isn't it?

MarkV<<

Big barn, or garage. That is the one thing we agree on.

Paul Bradway

 

[s1120]

dmccarty,

Ya, what you said.

Paul Bradway

 

[fishman]

Bill makes some excellent points regarding Harv's questions on fish managment in small ponds. I too have some expertise in this area, but it is limited to Missouri and Texas. Therefore, I can't give any specific advice on year-round trout fisheries. Here in TX, we generally stock trout in the winter, termed a put-and-take fishery. They'd better get caught by April, or they're toast anyway.

Anyway, to Harv's question about largemouth bass. As Bill points out, they are a predatory fish. The first thing I would recommend is contacting your local (California, isn't it?) fisheries office to determine suitable stocking rates and sizes of forage fish. In Texas, for example, with an existing predator population, I would recommend that only adult sunfish larger than 5" be stocked. I would also recommend placement of two or three brushpiles (hardwood or Christmas trees) in 4-6' of water to enhance survival of young bluegill. With proper cover, and the correct predatory and forage fish species, a pond should be self-sustaining. Likely, Harv's die-off was due to low dissolved oxygen combined with low water levels. For best results, ponds should be at least 8 feet at the deepest point, 12 is better.

Bill can carry a lot more fish through the year with feeding and aeration, so those of us that are unable or unwilling to put out that kind of effort cannot expect the same success. I applaud his efforts.

 

[Bill_in_MI]

fishman,
Thanks for the kind and supporting comments. I would be happy if just half of what I think I know is right. Even in a small pond it is tough to keep everything in balance. I added only a dozen bass because I was getting worried about the spawning bluegills. Even though they are claimed to be 99.9% males...the 0.1% females can do a pretty good job of producing thousands of tiny offspring. So far, so good. It's kind of neat to see the bass line up in the shallows to get their dinner. I also have a couple of herons that take their toll on the population. Mixed emotions there as I like to see all the wildlife that visits including deer, raccoons, ducks, geese, and a dog I had to rescue that fell into the open center of an otherwise frozen pond. I think he was swimming in circles all night because when we (wife helped) finally got him out he didn't have enough energy left to walk up the small bank. (Actually had to rescue my wife during the same episode, but that is a longer story.)
Hope I can pick your brain if I run into questions in the future.

Bill

 

[Harv]

Bill, John (I mean Fishman) -

Thanks for the fish tips. It looks like I have a little research to do.

Oh, boy! Another project. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Interestingly, the bass, trout and catfish were there for years, and each summer the pond would dry up to almost a wading pool. Yet when the rains came and the water level went back to 10 or 12 feet, there they all were again.

How'd they do that?

I think the drought a few years back is what off'd the trout. Nothing left of the pond that year but a few mud puddles. To my amazement, though, the bass and a few catfish survived even that. /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Then one day the catfish were just gone, including this big ol' guy that would come right up to the pier looking for a handout whenever I went out there. I suspect predators (probably the 2-legged kind) took care of him. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif Total strangers are stopping by to ask if they can drop a line in the pond now and then. Since it is not visible from any road, it always made me wonder how they knew it was there. /w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif

 

[Bird]

Hmmm, Fishman, wonder if you're one of the guys my brother talked to before he stocked his pond last summer with hybrid Blue Gill that he bought in Waco. I've forgotten all the details, but he stocked the Blue Gill first, gave them time to gain some size, and then stocked some Largemouth Bass. When he put the Blue Gill in, he also put an aerator pump and he feeds them them the commercial pellets.

And my brother has a Blue Heron spending a lot of time at his pond, too. I saw an article a couple of days ago that a young fisherman found a Blue Heron caught on the hooks of a trotline and was trying to free it when it pecked him in the eye - he lost that eye.

Bird

 

[fishman]

Harv,

Since you asked . . .
As long as there is sufficient dissolved oxygen in the water, and temperature doesn't get too high, it doesn't matter how deep the water is. Among adult fish, catfish are the most resistant to low DO. Juvenile bass and sunfish can survive in very low DO by using the oxygen-rich layer of water at the surface. This layer is very thin so the physical size of the fish limits their ability to use this survival strategy. Certain species of fish are remarkably tough. In the Amazon, some survive by respiring only around suspended roots under vegetation mats because that is the only place there is any dissolved oxygen. Here in Texas, the water temperature in power plant cooling reservoirs often exceeds 100 F in the summer, yet they are some of the most productive in terms of trophy largemouth bass.

To your second question:

When bass and catfish coexist in a small pond setting, recruitment of juvenile catfish to adult size is almost nil. That's because the bass eat them. A general recommendation is to stock 8"-10" catfish in ponds that have bass in them. Stock at the recommended rate the first time, usually about 50-100/acre, then stock a reduced amount (25-50% of previous stocking) every three years, or replace sooner if at least half have been removed by angling. Good records make your job easier. You will, of course, need some sort of prey for your bass. Sunfish species work best in most areas.

This information has very little to do with tractors! However, if anybody is planning to build a small fishing pond I would be happy to answer any questions as to placement of habitat or general stocking guidelines for the midwestern states. If I can't answer your question, I'll try and give you an idea of where to find out more about it. This is the least I can do, considering the tremendous amount of quality information you guys give out about tractor stuff. I'm still a wannabe tractor owner.

 

[fishman]

Bird,

Ouch! I'll keep your story in mind the next time I pull up to one of our gill nets and a heron has got his foot wrapped in it.

As you have guessed (or did I put it in my bio, can't remember), I am the fisheries biologist here in Waco, TX. Make sure your brother also stocks some non-hybrid bluegill or redbreast for bass forage. Hybrid bluegill are unsuitable for that purpose because most of their offspring, if there are any, most closely resemble green sunfish, which actually compete with juvenile bass for small forage fish. At this point, he should stock only 4-5" adult fish, so the bass don't eat them up. Those hybrids should get big quick on feed. Another word of caution, use floating food don't put any more in the pond than the fish can eat in 10 minutes. Excess food sinks to the bottom and can cause fish die-offs due to low DO when the pond "turns over" in the spring, or after a rain.

I've got some really good info on managing fish populations in TX ponds that I will happily mail (for free) to anyone who wants it. Just e-mail me. It should also be mostly applicable to ponds in OK, KS, MO, NM, AR, and LA.

 

[dmccarty]

Fishman,

Welcome to the TBN!

I have a tough fish story for TBN. When I lived in Florida I was worked with the GFC on a volunteer basis. I worked with the Fish Biologists quite a bit doing creel surveys and fish population counts.

We were working one day on a canal that is the northside of managment area while to the north of us was mile after mile of sugar cane fields. This was in western Palm Beach County. We where elctro fishing with a big honda generator in a jon boat. We caught hundreds of walking catfish about 6 inches long. They have to be th toughest critter I have ever seen. Since they are non native we would just leave them in the bottom on the boat to "die" since we were not going to return them to the water like the other fish. It was a HOT summer day and the boat hull was to hot to touch. These blasted critters just crawled all over the place. They would get under you feet, hid under benches, and generally get where they could be the most PITA. At the end of the day we counted and measured the walking catfish some of whom had been out to the water for hours cooking on the boat hull. The blasted things were still squirming around! We would measure them, break their back and throw them up on the dyke for the birds to eat. After awhile we heard the rustling of the grass. It was these fish from H.ll trying to get back to water. Toughest animal I have ever seen.....

I was helping do a creel survey on the C41canel that goes from Broward to Dade county. We got to two boats that were from South Carolina. If I remember right one boat had 40 fish on board and the other 60. They were ALL Oscars. And big ones. These guys had driven down just to catch Oscars. They were HUGE. Well big compared to what they were when they were bought and put into an aquirium. Had to be a pound or so. Where the guys were fishing the water was just popping with fish and they were schools of Oscars. We did a population survey on a quarter acre on that same canal but I can't remember how many Oscars we got. I know it was alot...

I'm pretty sure the guys form SC were going to eat those fish......

Its an ugly mess what the non-native fish, plants, and animals are doing to South Florida. I know Texas has some problems but I did not think they were as bad as Florida. I heard there was a new fish that had been introduced down there that if it made it to the water management areas it was going to be a real disaster. I think it was an eel from Asia or some such.

Later...
Dan McCarty

 

[fishman]

Dan,
One question: How many recounts did you have to go through after each creel survey?

We just picked up a good hand here in TX. He came from Florida. Name is Randy Myers. You didn't by chance work with him?

TBN has got to be one of the best places on the web. Just glad to be able to communicate about something I know a little about, rather than just "lurking" as others have called it.

 

[dmccarty]

Fishman,

TBN is without a doubt one of the best places on the web I have ever found.

I did the creel surveys almost 10 years ago. "Things that make you go Hmmm." was a hit at the time and that came out in 1990.... Hmmm, That was along time ago... I think the Biologists were doing the survey once a month. I think the C41 is also the canal where the Air Tran? plane crashed a few years back.

Did Randy Myers come from the GFC. The Florida GFC has a new name nowadays. They name sounds familiar but I know I go here named Myers so that might be throwing me off. I worked with two Biologists, one was an old hand and the other guy was a new hire.

Its an interesting job. I'm sure glad I did not bring a tuna sandwich on my first day working with them! I think I would have been very, very hungry! Especially when we were doing the survey's using explosive cord and the poison. Day Three of the survey was interesting! No sushi for me thank you very much! I never could tell if they were kidding or not about stepping on a gator!

Working with GFC I saw some areas of Florida that only a handfull of people every see. I really miss it. One of the things I learned working with the biologists as well as doing other jobs was how HUGE the fish population can be in a volume of water. I remember seeing one area way out in the Water Management Districts with the water just crystal clear and full of fish. If the fish would not have moved you could have litterally scooped an arm load of fish. Mainly gar but just big bunch of fish.

The water quality where we had the walking catfish was bad. Murky and I'm sure of fertilizers/chemicals from the farms. I know they were working on getting water quality measurements but I never heard how good/bad it was. It had to have pretty poor quality since the sugar plantations would pump water on to the fields and then pump it off. The sugar companies did not like us on their land either. Its a big mess. I guess the Federal and State goverments are going to be spending 100's of millions of dollars to clean everything up. Its a heck of a problem.

I love Florida but I hate what has happened to it. The paradise is long gone.... 8-(

Later...
Dan McCarty

 

[Harv]

FishMan -

Thanks for the good info. I have started a file which, so far, consists entirely of your contributions.

Until recently, I thought a pond was just a hole in the ground that collects water, requiring little, if any, maintenance. In fact, a friend of mine used to teach "pond life" at the Livermore Hall of Science nearby. At the beginning of the course, the class would simply scratch a hole in ground, line it with plastic sheeting and fill it up with plain ol' tap water. Over the ensuing weeks they would check it carefully for signs of life, microscopic or otherwise. By the end of the term it was amazing how many critters were living there, both large and small.

Our 2-acre pond was originally set up many years ago by my father and now it is simply part of the property whose maintenance is in my hands. Little by little I am learning that maintenance and planning are everything -- from keeping all the water channels open, both in and out, to weed control, dam erosion and now population control of the fish. I guess mothe nature needs a hand now and then after all (of course, that's why I bought a tractor /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif).

I hadn't really thought about it until this discussion got started, but in addition to formerly having more/different kinds of fish, we actually used to swim in that pond. Nowadays we sort of feel like washing our hands after reaching into it for any reason. I guess I should start analyzing the micro/macro properties of that water. It is haven to fish, frogs, turtles, ducks, geese and even a heron, not to mention the abundant varieties of insect critters.

I guess I'm building up to this question -- is it possible/feasible to clear up the water and still maintain at least most of the wildlife we have attracted? There is pretty good flow during the winter and spring months, but it becomes stagnant during the summer, and algae takes over.

Also, I'm only up there 1 or 2 weekends a month, so I can't tend to it on a daily basis.

Thanks again for your input, and I look forward to your future posts.

 

[Thomas]

Dan,
An eel /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif/w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif you would have seen only the back side of me running away for sure. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I heard people eat eels /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif but I do wonder what an eel taste like,but not brave enough to try one.

Thomas..NH /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif