New tractor advice sought

[ericm979]

Hi, I have been reading for a while but first post.

We have 20 acres in the California coastal mountains. The land's pretty hilly. Half was cleared a long time ago, the other half is second growth doug fir with some redwoods and (mostly dead) tan oaks. The "cleared" part is brush except for the parts I cleared to meadow. The brush is mostly coyote brush. Soil is sandy with a lot of organic matter in the forested part.

I've been using a B7100HST for 15 years. I run a Merry Mac 4.5" chipper/shredder, 42" rotary mower, use the loader to pull up larger brush, and use the loader to move dirt for the garden and piled leaves on the paved road. Box blade to smooth out places I cleared.

With the land being hilly there's a lot of places too steep to get a tractor in. There's a couple flat acres around the house, a few roads (and more that I need to clear) and about half of the brushy area isn't too steep to operate the B7100 on, especially if I avoid sidehilling.

I'd really like a larger chipper as the current one's just not that effective. I'm thinking a Woodmax 8H or similar. I'll need a bigger tractor to run it. I'd also like to do a lot more clearing of brush and some trees, and the B7100 just can't do that much.

I'm looking at a new Kubota, either a large B or small L. The Woodmax 8H's minimum 19hp would technically be satisfied by a B2650 or L2501 but it seems that more HP would make it more useful. The Ls have a slightly larger turning radius than the Bs. The Ls are heavier which would be good for loader work and stability hauling a 990 lb chipper.

Questions:
-is a B3350 more stable on slopes than an L3301?
-is the lighter weight of a B beneficial on sloped soft soil so it doesn't sink in and tip?
-can the wheels be moved out on B50s or small Ls?
-the R1s on the B7100 have worn, probably due to work on pavement. R4s would handle that much better. Do they also make the track wider than R1s? How about floatation on soft soil?
-how well does the Woodmax 8h handle brush and small stuff?

 

[dickfoster]

Hi, I have been reading for a while but first post.

We have 20 acres in the California coastal mountains. The land's pretty hilly. Half was cleared a long time ago, the other half is second growth doug fir with some redwoods and (mostly dead) tan oaks. The "cleared" part is brush except for the parts I cleared to meadow. The brush is mostly coyote brush. Soil is sandy with a lot of organic matter in the forested part.

I've been using a B7100HST for 15 years. I run a Merry Mac 4.5" chipper/shredder, 42" rotary mower, use the loader to pull up larger brush, and use the loader to move dirt for the garden and piled leaves on the paved road. Box blade to smooth out places I cleared.

With the land being hilly there's a lot of places too steep to get a tractor in. There's a couple flat acres around the house, a few roads (and more that I need to clear) and about half of the brushy area isn't too steep to operate the B7100 on, especially if I avoid sidehilling.

I'd really like a larger chipper as the current one's just not that effective. I'm thinking a Woodmax 8H or similar. I'll need a bigger tractor to run it. I'd also like to do a lot more clearing of brush and some trees, and the B7100 just can't do that much.

I'm looking at a new Kubota, either a large B or small L. The Woodmax 8H's minimum 19hp would technically be satisfied by a B2650 or L2501 but it seems that more HP would make it more useful. The Ls have a slightly larger turning radius than the Bs. The Ls are heavier which would be good for loader work and stability hauling a 990 lb chipper.

Questions:
-is a B3350 more stable on slopes than an L3301?
-is the lighter weight of a B beneficial on sloped soft soil so it doesn't sink in and tip?
-can the wheels be moved out on B50s or small Ls?
-the R1s on the B7100 have worn, probably due to work on pavement. R4s would handle that much better. Do they also make the track wider than R1s? How about floatation on soft soil?
-how well does the Woodmax 8h handle brush and small stuff?

Maybe you should be looking at a track steer for your very hilly and sloping terrain. Or maybe hire someone to get that dead stuff dealt with due to the fire hazard. You must have had some pucker factor working this past summer.

When I moved in up here it was very much overgrown with underbrush. I had a local outfit come in with a couple of masticators (forest mowers) on track steers. Much of my property has steep slopes too but the track steers managed it easily. When they left the fire hazard was much reduced and it looked like a park. All of the overgrowth was ground into the ground as mulch so that helps with runoff while it also benefits the trees left standing. It wasn't cheap but it didn't cost nearly as much as a tractor.

Also be sure to check and make sure that there aren't some government programs that will help you defray the costs to reduce fire danger on your property. I found out after the fact that the forest service would have paid me quite a bit to do what I had done but not after it's too late of course.

BTW I move up here from LG about 3 years ago but visit friends and my financial adviser there once in awhile. The traffic is just plain nuts there now. I'm very glad I moved away from the madness.

 

[art]

The wheel spacers on the rear could be a major asset to the hill work!

 

[flusher]

For hills and slopes there's no substitute for wide wheel track and low center of gravity.
My 1964 MF135 diesel tractor was modified to work in orchards where lower is better.



The rear tires are 18.4 inches wide for high flotation to keep from rutting the orchard.
These tires fit 16 inch diameter rims. They are used primarily for large farm equipment like combines, corn harvesters and grain trucks that work in the fields and need the high flotation.
The front axle spindles were shortened to keep that 135 level.
What's nice about that MF135 is that it's a straddle-type tractor (your legs straddle the sides of transmission) that helps keep the center of gravity low. Unfortunately, most new modern tractors are the other type that has the higher seat and a floorboard so the CG is higher.

Some mods like these are relatively easy to make on any tractor and might work for you and improve performance and safety for work on your hilly property.

Good luck

 

[jeff9366]

Are the rear tires on the B7100 filled with liquid?

In the fifteen years you have owned your Kubota, how many engine hours have you put on the hour meter?

I advise moving up to a heavy chassis Kubota 'Grand L' 3560. The rear wheels are adjustable for width in four increments. The heavy chassis makes the tractor more stable on slopes. ((You want the rear tires filled on any tractor which will be operated on slopes. Filling the rear tires lowers the center-of-gravity.)) The extra 1/2 gear on each of the three ranges on Grand L HST+ transmission will be very useful on slopes.

You will not notice much incremental performance increase between your B7100 and any Kubota B or the L2501. Power steering, however, will be NICE.

T-B-N ARCHIVE: Google

Questions:
-is a B3350 more stable on slopes than an L3301?
-is the lighter weight of a B beneficial on sloped soft soil so it doesn't sink in and tip?
-can the wheels be moved out on B50s or small Ls?
-the R1s on the B7100 have worn, probably due to work on pavement. R4s would handle that much better. Do they also make the track wider than R1s? How about floatation on soft soil?

Generally speaking, heavier tractors have wider tracks, so heavier tractors are more stable. Also, larger tires are less prone to be swallowed in holes and ruts.

You have to spend for a Grand L to have adjustable tire widths.

R4/industrial tires wear much better on asphalt and concrete than R1/ag tires. R4s vibrate much less than R1s on concrete.

R4/industrial tires generally increase track width 4" to 6" over R1/ag tires, depending on the size of tractor.

Most of the major tractor brands produce low, wide VINEYARD & ORCHARD tractors which are produced from scratch for these applications, not modified 'regular' tractors. Prices are somewhat elevated in low volume VINEYARD & ORCHARD category.

 

[gladehound]

The track steer suggestion is a very good one. If dead set on a tractor for steeper areas, I'd forget the Kubota B series. I'm not sure how easy an L is to make low and wide so no comment there. However, if I wanted a low wide modern tractor, I'd probably start with a MF2605 and leave it as is with the wheels spaced on the widest setting or use it as a starting point for modification to make it lower / wider. I realize this is a much heavier tractor than you were looking at, but being heavier, with heavier axles, it will handle wide tires and axle spacers better than a small tractor.

Kubota might make something similar if you like that brand better.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Lots of ways to go, from hiring it out to buying some nice gear. I have slopes, I went with a Power-Trac. Heck of a machine, a bit of a swiss army knife. Has its pro's and cons like any machine you are looking at in a slopey situation...

Versatile Tractors,Compact Tractors,Trailer Packages,Landscaping,Utility Vehicle Rentals,Mowers-Power Trac

 

[dickfoster]

This is what he needs for where he lives.

I think his primary concern at this point is probably fire hazard reduction. Since it's a one time affair he could just hire it done, save a lot money and get better, more complete results. They took two days to do my property. How long would it take him to do it on his own with a tractor and how many acres could access with a tractor no matter how he fiddles with it.

 

[ericm979]

We've hired out and cleared ourselves to make a good clearing around the house. The local fire safe council has a free chipping program but the piles have to be next to roads big enough to get a tree service truck up them. I have no problem hiring out stuff that's difficult or dangerous or simply more efficient but I like to do the easier stuff and regular maintenance myself.

The power track looks interesting but expensive. Will it run a chipper? I'm not looking to drive up all the slopes- there's places I can't ride an off road motorcycle on. Being as stable as the B7100 would be enough; more stable would be better. Is there really no difference between the B7100's 13 pto hp and the pto hp from a B2650 or B3350? The numbers sure look better on the large Bs. Power steering sure would be nice.

Another question- is a 4 in 1 bucket useful for pulling up brush? Is a grapple better? Or is a pirannah type tooth bar on a regular bucket sufficient? Some of the coyote brush is old and well rooted and with the 7100 it's a lot of time and work to get it out. Brush I pull up will go in the chipper; we can't burn here. That's the reason chipping is important to me.

We were concerned about the Loma Prieta fire but it was a few ridges away and going the other way.

Traffic in the valley does suck but there's lots of work there. Summer beach traffic through Los Gatos has gotten terrible in the last couple years.

 

[jeff9366]

In the fifteen years you have owned your kubota, how many engine hours have you put on the hour meter?

A Ratchet Rake bucket attachment is the best tool for pulling up brush. TSC sells the Ratchet Rake but not all lengths are consistently in stock.
You can order a Ratchet Rake from the Tractor By Net store, button at top of this page. Delivery by UPS.

A Ratchet Rake piles brush superbly. It is also fine for minor grading. You can use a Ratchet Rake to prepare a small garden.

To pick up brush, you need a grapple, pallet forks, debris forks, or a bale spear, all front mount.

There are chippers and there are chipper/shredders. It seems like you need a chipper/shredder.

VIDEO: ratchet rake brush clearing - YouTube


T-B-N Archive/Ratchet Rake: Google

 

[ericm979]

I have only put a few hundred hours on the B7100. I've had stuff going on in my life the last 12 years which has consumed nearly all my time and energy outside work. (nothing bad; it was something I enjoyed). But I'm scaling that activity back and will have time to deal with my neglected property. I'll also probably be retiring relatively soon. I'd like to clear land for a shop, clean up some old overgrown roads, make some new ones, open up some more areas with brush on them for looks and for fire safety.

I went to a Kubota dealer and checked out the B3350 and L3301. I liked the manuverability of the 3350 and most of the controls. While it's lower I think the L3301 is wider and would be better on slopes. Much larger than a L3301 seems like it'd be unweildy in some of the tighter places, and is probably more than I need. Also my wife went with me and when she saw the L3301 she said "that's huge!". I think 5' implements would be enough for the areas I'll be grading and mowing.

I'd get R4s and possibly wheel spacers. Does a wider front track help stability as much as a wide rear, even with the axle pivot? The L3301 seeems narrow there compared to some competitors.

I'm planning on getting a Woodmax WM-8H chipper. We dont' burn much wood. You can't even give fir away for firewood here. So I'd be chipping fir as big as I can fit in the chipper. Larger madrone and oak can be used as firewood but I'll be chipping anything under 4". Will 26 PTO HP power a WM-8H for large fir or would I need more power? I've watched videos of the WM-8H in action. It's pathetic on a 19hp machine, the guy had to stop the feed for a branch that wasn't even that big. The videos from Woodmax (and Woodland Mills 8" chipper) seem to use 3901s and they appear to handle larger stuff without feeding too slow.

I'm considering a flail instead of a rotary cutter. I read the entire 400 page flail thread when I was home sick. Safety is the biggest concern- I already shot a rock into the neighbor's window when mowing on the property line. That was with wth a 42" cutter, I imagine a 5' one will shoot stuff a lot farther. A lot of the brush we have is too big and old for a rotary cutter but once it's cut or pulled up the new stuff that sprouts is under an inch and could go under a flail. A flail seems like it'd be shorter and more manuverable. I realize it's more maintenance.

I've been comparison shopping other makes around the L3301 size. There's some nice features that I've not seen before having only uses one tractor from the 1990s. The loader control on the fender on the B3350 was nice. It seems like independent PTO would be useful. Dont' have to stop to turn off the PTO, and you can reach the PTO control from the ground when operating a chipper. Massey 1736 even has a PTO button on the fender! I can kind of heel and toe my B7100 but left side brake would be more convenient. I'd like to try a tractor with dual HST pedals instead of a rocker. How useful do you find the independent PTO?

The closest dealers are Deere and Kubota, about 25 miles away. I'm not interested in Deere and that dealer doesn't sell many tractors, they mostly sell turf equipment. Massey, NH and the Kubota dealer I went to are 50-60 miles. There's a Mahindra dealer 85 miles away. Unfortunately Dave's Tractor is 250 miles away. Purely by spec the LS XR3135 looks the best but that dealer's 100 miles and appears to be a small operation. Mahindra 2538 also looks good, nice tight turning radius and wide track, and lack of DPF means I could run it at lower speeds or idle when appropriate. I'm a bit concerned about Korean tractor's reliability, lack of documentation and lack of parts compared to Kubota. Having a quality dealer would be even more important than with a Kubota. But there's some better features on paper. I need to make some time to visit dealers.

Massey lists the slope operation for the 1736 at 20 degrees all around. I've not seen that figure for any other tractor and I realize that all it takes is a hole or rock to put you over. But a comparison would be useful.

Thanks for anyone who reads all this or answers any of my questions.

 

[rbtjr]

I have only put a few hundred hours on the B7100. I've had stuff going on in my life the last 12 years which has consumed nearly all my time and energy outside work. (nothing bad; it was something I enjoyed). But I'm scaling that activity back and will have time to deal with my neglected property. I'll also probably be retiring relatively soon. I'd like to clear land for a shop, clean up some old overgrown roads, make some new ones, open up some more areas with brush on them for looks and for fire safety.

I went to a Kubota dealer and checked out the B3350 and L3301. I liked the manuverability of the 3350 and most of the controls. While it's lower I think the L3301 is wider and would be better on slopes. Much larger than a L3301 seems like it'd be unweildy in some of the tighter places, and is probably more than I need. Also my wife went with me and when she saw the L3301 she said "that's huge!". I think 5' implements would be enough for the areas I'll be grading and mowing.

I'd get R4s and possibly wheel spacers. Does a wider front track help stability as much as a wide rear, even with the axle pivot? The L3301 seeems narrow there compared to some competitors.

I'm planning on getting a Woodmax WM-8H chipper. We dont' burn much wood. You can't even give fir away for firewood here. So I'd be chipping fir as big as I can fit in the chipper. Larger madrone and oak can be used as firewood but I'll be chipping anything under 4". Will 26 PTO HP power a WM-8H for large fir or would I need more power? I've watched videos of the WM-8H in action. It's pathetic on a 19hp machine, the guy had to stop the feed for a branch that wasn't even that big. The videos from Woodmax (and Woodland Mills 8" chipper) seem to use 3901s and they appear to handle larger stuff without feeding too slow.

I'm considering a flail instead of a rotary cutter. I read the entire 400 page flail thread when I was home sick. Safety is the biggest concern- I already shot a rock into the neighbor's window when mowing on the property line. That was with wth a 42" cutter, I imagine a 5' one will shoot stuff a lot farther. A lot of the brush we have is too big and old for a rotary cutter but once it's cut or pulled up the new stuff that sprouts is under an inch and could go under a flail. A flail seems like it'd be shorter and more manuverable. I realize it's more maintenance.

I've been comparison shopping other makes around the L3301 size. There's some nice features that I've not seen before having only uses one tractor from the 1990s. The loader control on the fender on the B3350 was nice. It seems like independent PTO would be useful. Dont' have to stop to turn off the PTO, and you can reach the PTO control from the ground when operating a chipper. Massey 1736 even has a PTO button on the fender! I can kind of heel and toe my B7100 but left side brake would be more convenient. I'd like to try a tractor with dual HST pedals instead of a rocker. How useful do you find the independent PTO?

The closest dealers are Deere and Kubota, about 25 miles away. I'm not interested in Deere and that dealer doesn't sell many tractors, they mostly sell turf equipment. Massey, NH and the Kubota dealer I went to are 50-60 miles. There's a Mahindra dealer 85 miles away. Unfortunately Dave's Tractor is 250 miles away. Purely by spec the LS XR3135 looks the best but that dealer's 100 miles and appears to be a small operation. Mahindra 2538 also looks good, nice tight turning radius and wide track, and lack of DPF means I could run it at lower speeds or idle when appropriate. I'm a bit concerned about Korean tractor's reliability, lack of documentation and lack of parts compared to Kubota. Having a quality dealer would be even more important than with a Kubota. But there's some better features on paper. I need to make some time to visit dealers.

Massey lists the slope operation for the 1736 at 20 degrees all around. I've not seen that figure for any other tractor and I realize that all it takes is a hole or rock to put you over. But a comparison would be useful.

Thanks for anyone who reads all this or answers any of my questions.

We have a Kubota L3800. We put a 4" spacer on each rear wheel. That 8" total increased width made a very significant difference in the stability of the tractor. Second, we have a W R Long UJ2 four-in-one bucket on the L3800. It is an extremely useful attachment. We also have a grapple, and if I had to choose between the 4-in-1 bucket and the grapple I would pick the 4-in-1. However, I think there would be a lot of disagreement about that choice on this board. Finally, if you do run the tractor sideways on hills, of course be very--very--careful. Walk the ground first, and when in doubt don't do it. And be sure to operate only on slight hills until you get a very good feel. And go slowly. We have a tilt-meter on the L3800, and I never go more than a 15 reading (not sure if that is degrees or percent, but whatever it is, I don't exceed it). And if you leave the loader on, be sure to lower the bucket as much as you can to lower the center of gravity. I run the bucket almost at the ground with the front edge of the bucket angled up so that if I hit an unseen obstacle the bucket won't dig in and cause further problems. I am sure that many others can weigh in with safety advice. When in any doubt, don't do it.

 

[jeff9366]

Loading the rear tires 3/4 full with liquid lowers the tractor's center-of-gravity.

 

[ericm979]

I plan to get the rears loaded. The dealer I have an L3301 quote for says they fill with plain water.

 

[jeff9366]

We have 20 acres in the California coastal mountains. The land's pretty hilly.

I've been using a B7100HST for 15 years. I run a Merry Mac 4.5" chipper/shredder, 42" rotary mower, use the loader to pull up larger brush, and use the loader to move dirt for the garden and piled leaves on the paved road. Box blade to smooth out places I cleared.

With the land being hilly there's a lot of places too steep to get a tractor in. There's a couple flat acres around the house, a few roads (and more that I need to clear) and about half of the brushy area isn't too steep to operate the B7100 on, especially if I avoid sidehilling.

I'd really like a larger chipper as the current one's just not that effective. I'm thinking a Woodmax 8H or similar. I'll need a bigger tractor to run it. I'd also like to do a lot more clearing of brush and some trees, and the B7100 just can't do that much.

I'm looking at a new Kubota, either a large B or small L. The Woodmax 8H's minimum 19hp would technically be satisfied by a B2650 or L2501 but it seems that more HP would make it more useful. The Ls have a slightly larger turning radius than the Bs. The Ls are heavier which would be good for loader work and stability hauling a 990 lb chipper.

You know your situation best and you have some tractor experience. Having said that, in my experience, you are considering tractors that are too light. You need a tractor with a bare weight of 3,500 pounds, which in Kubotas are the 'Grand Ls' or utilitarian MX series.

Better a used tractor of sufficient weight than a new tractor that is too light.

Questions:
-is a B3350 more stable on slopes than an L3301?

B3350 = 1,896 pounds/bare tractor, 54" tire width

L2501 = 2,623 pounds/bare tractor, 55" tire width

Both are too light for work on slopes. Neither can safely operate a 990 pounds chipper. On even slight slopes, the chipper will take control of either tractor. Not only is the chipper heavy, it is cantilevered far to the rear of the tractor on the Three Point Hitch, amplifying the effective weight of the chipper in leveraging up the front wheels.


-is the lighter weight of a B beneficial on sloped soft soil so it doesn't sink in and tip?

No. The opposite is true. Weight increases stability.

-Can the wheels be moved out on Bs or small Ls?

No. For adjustable rear tire widths you have to buy a 'Grand L'.

-the R1s on the B7100 have worn, probably due to work on pavement. R4s would handle that much better. Do they also make the track wider than R1s?

Yes. About 3" on the Bs and small Ls.

How about floatation on soft soil?

Flotation not the key metric. The key metric is traction. Generally speaking, R1 and R4 tires exert approximately the same ground pressure. As tractors get heavier, tractor tire size also increase. In soft soil barred R1 tires have more traction. (R4s float slightly more than R1s.)

You did not state your altitude. Horsepower declines about 3% for every 1,000 feet of altitude over 1,500 feet. At 6,000 feet or more, a turbocharged tractor engine is advised.

Buy enough tractor.

 

[ericm979]

The one time I got into trouble with the 7100 was when dumping a bucket load of pine needles and debris on my pine needle pile. It's off the side of a bank. The ground slopes down about 4' and I'd built the pile out level from the top, dumping with a wheelbarrow over the years. I drove the 7100 out on it a few feet and one side sunk down, tilting the tractor over farther than I was comfortable with. I didn't want to chance tipping it over while getting it out so I used a comealong to pull it up and filled in the soft spot so it supported the tractor enough to drive it safely.

I probably can't get away with stuff like that on a tractor that weighs 2-2.5x more. But we got rid of those big firs near the house and got some other equipment that I'd be using to haul needles so I won't be using the new tractor for that.

Your point about the weight of the chipper is one I've been considering too. The chipper on the 7100 is about at the limit of it's 3pt capacity and makes a significant difference in handling. But it does add traction.

We're at 2000' so altitude's not an issue.

 

[jeff9366]

1) I didn't want to chance tipping it over while getting it out so I used a comealong to pull it up.

2) I probably can't get away with stuff like that on a tractor that weighs 2-2.5x more. But we got rid of those big firs near the house and got some other equipment that I'd be using to haul needles so I won't be using the new tractor for that.

1. Prudent resolution. Farming is one of the most dangerous occupations; and tractors account for many farm injuries.

2. A 3,500 pound tractor FEL will have a more reach on an longer length-overall tractor.

The chipper may be withiin weight limits of Three Point Hitch when the tractor is stationary but chipper will apply much more stress to the tractor when it bounces.

One of the keys to tractor reliability is to NOT operate tractors at >80% of limits more often then necessary.

BUY ENOUGH TRACTOR.

 

[mike69440]

For weight, a mid size Mahindra or Kioti would be a better choice, especially with FEL, you have 4,000 lb tractor, more with loaded tires.

 

[ericm979]

I'm coming to the conclusion that it's going to be a Kubota L3901. I'm not entirely happy about that. There are similar sized models from LS, Mahindra and Branson that I'd consider. They have more features than the stripped down L's and cost less. But their dealers are all too far away- 80+ miles through traffic. You've heard of food deserts? I'm in a tractor desert. Within 50 miles there's just Deere, Kubota and Massey. I won't get a Deere. The MF dealer seemed uninterested in selling the models I'm looking at... they might have one in April.

The ratio of chipper weight to tractor+loader will be about the same with a Woodmaxx 8h and L3901 and my current MerryMac and B7100. I'd like a little more tractor weight, and a bit more loader capacity, like most of the L's competitors have. The next steps in the Kubota line, 4701 and 3560, are enough larger that I'm concerned about manuverability. My land is hilly with small interspersed flatish spots and roads. For the most part those are what I'm going to clear or keep cleared. I have to get the tractor to them, with loader and mower or chipper. The 4701 and 3560 have 6' buckets and that's getting tight for fitting into my barn. And they're a lot more expensive.

Around here for most people tractor == Kubota. That'll help resale value, but the dealers know the position they have and price accordingly. The quotes I have are list price minus Kubota incentive, and a little bit off that. I can only look in awe at the quotes that people post, and their selection of dealers.

OTOH Kubota makes good tractors and parts support is good. It's not like a L3901 is a bad tractor, just not exactly what I want and more than I wanted to pay. It's especially galling that the 3901 is $2300 more than a 3301 even though the only difference is ECU tuning, and it's actually only got 37.5hp.

 

[Thomas]

Lots good advice already giving. :thumbsup:
Let to the tractor come to you for comfort if your planning to spent hours in the seat,by that I mean leg butt arm comfort from controls.