new/used/rebuilt engine needed for JD 4100

MetalChicken · Nov 14, 2005

I'd def. have a go at rebuilding it myself.

A couple of years ago I rebuilt the engine of my IH 484 (small ag tractor). I replaced the pistons, rings, cylinder sleeves big end bearings and had the head skimmed by an engine shop.

The rebuild was done 'in frame' and was great fun. I had NEVER done anything like that before and had little engine knowledge.
Diesels are simple beasts, all you need are a few tools and the workshop manual. Chances are the head doesn't need touching so it should be a simple ring/piston job.
If you take your time and don't try anything silly you'll fix it yourself, save a load of money and learn a lot about engines. You'll be a lot closer to your tractor after you've nursed it back to health yourself.
All you can lose is a bit of spare time and a fairly small amount of money - especially if you don't order new parts until you've got the head off and the pistons out.
I'm sure there's a lot of help waiting to be given here if you have any questions.
Take pictures of everything (to remind yourself where stuff goes and to show us!) and go slowly - it's not a race
/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

coloradotrout · Nov 14, 2005

Yeah, I'm a glutten for doing it myself. I'll probably go the route of "in" sourcing my job.

3RRL · Nov 14, 2005

( If you take your time and don't try anything silly you'll fix it yourself, save a load of money and learn a lot about engines. You'll be a lot closer to your tractor after you've nursed it back to health yourself.)

Really liked what you said and how you put it. Excellent advice and certainly true.

coloradotrout · Nov 17, 2005

So I've scimmed the manual on pulling pistons and replacing rings. Pull muffler, pull head, drop oil pan. That's about it. Now, that said, are there any "gotcha's" along the way? When I put the piston back in, do I need to worry about timing? Or does that take care of itself as long as I don't dig deeper in the engine?

MetalChicken · Nov 17, 2005

Well after stripping the head, oil pan, etc. I undid the big end bearing caps (note which way round they go and labels them cos they must go back in the same place), knocked out the pistons from underneath, replaced the pistons with new ones and put them back in!
My tractor has cylinder liners so they where put in before the new pistons.
That's the simple version of it, but there are no extra basic steps involved.
The timing will remain the same uless you remove the injector pump - which you're def not going to do /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Remember to keep it simple and not remove anything that doesn't need to be touched. Let me know if your engine has sleeves. If so it may be an idea to replace them (you will quite esily be able to get a kit with new sleeves, pistons and rings) as a broken ring 'may' have scratches the bore.

Mike_Lipke · Nov 18, 2005

Timing will not be affected. Pistons are prolly ok. Most any machine shop works on both gas and Diesels, and if you walk in with the pistons, they can usually tell you just by looking at them if they need to be replaced. I have found that machine shop guys are very helpful.
If it was overheated, and it sure sounds like it was, the head should be checked for warp and planed if needed. Simple, cheap.
Cast iron blocks are pretty darn stable, so it is prolly ok, but you can buy a dial guage, or borrow one, and check for bore out of round.
Tools are cheap, really. You will need feeler guages, ring compressor, torque wrench, dingleberry hone, metric wrenches and sockets. You prolly have everything but the rc, dbh and tw.
Get a sharpie, and label parts. Piston 1, 2, 3. Arrow toward front, etc.
Go to walmart and get 4 or 5 cans of their carb cleaner. I think they sell that for about 88cents a can, and it works well for blasting off grease and crud off most everything before reassembly. Get the bolts clean, and then lube the threads with grease, oil or antisieze so that you get good torque readings.
I'm betting all you need is gaskets and rings. They may be able to plane the head (if necessary) with the valves in it. If not, they can take out the valves, plane the head, and reinstall the valves with new oil seals. That whole business should be under $100. And, it is one less place for the oil to get into the combustion chamber. You will have to set the valves if this is done, but again, not that hard with the injectors out and no compression.
Go for it.
You will smell funny and have discolored digits, but you will have fun and really know that engine.

jimmysisson · Nov 18, 2005

With chassis parts and a torque wrench, the threads are not supposed to be lubed, but clean and dry. Is that not true with engine/drivetrain parts? Anyone know how antisieze affects torque readings? Or am I all wet again?
Jim

Mike_Lipke · Nov 18, 2005

The service manual will be the final arbiter. Most times the head bolts are so highly torqued that they can gall the threads if not lubed.
Reminds me. some engines recommend that the head bolts be replaced if the head comes off, because they actually stretch. If the manual or the dealer recommend this, don't cheat. they can break off in the block while torquing, and that is not a good thing. Don't fret about this though. If the dealer or book says to just retorque, you will be ok. Also, do it JUST the way they say. Some, you have to torque to a certain number, then rotate an additional 90, 120, or even 180 degrees. It really is fun. I am serious. Fun.

coloradotrout · Dec 2, 2005

As for a torque wrench, are the HF ones good enough?
http://order.harborfreight.com/EasyAsk/harborfreight/results.jsp

their 1/4", 3/8", or 1/2"

Mike_Lipke · Dec 4, 2005

I would think that they are fine. I have a 3/8 inch and it is a good size. 1/4 is too small. I find myself using 3/8 inch sockets most of the time, so 3/8 TW is what I use. If I am torquing something that uses one of my 1/2 sockets, I use a 3/8 to 1/2 converter so that I can still use the 3/8 TW.
Have you started tearing into that engine yet?
Find a small local machine shop to help with the technical questions. Most are very helpfull with questions like "is this piston ok, or should I buy a new one?"

BobReeves · Dec 4, 2005

Wondering how you can get enough leverage on a 3/8 wrench for head bolts. If you are only going to buy one I would get the 1/2 inch.

jeffmazz · Dec 4, 2005

Hey Mike, that dingleberry hone you are referring to is actually a glazebreaker. They are normally used to break the glaze on a cylinder before actual honing. You can sometimes use these for final honing of the cylinders but it is not recommended. It is recommended to use a cylinder hone with the correct grit stones for the particular piston rings you are using. The ring manufacturer should specify a certain grit stone and hone pattern for their particular rings. Again, you can use the glazebreaker but you may drastically shorten the life of the rings depending on the application.

Best Regards,
Jeff

VA_Joe · Dec 4, 2005

Unfortunantly - one size does not fit all. You will likely need one of each. The 1/2 inch for head bolts and other bolts requiring torque in the multiple foot-pound range and the 3/8 inch for valve covers and oil pans requiring torque in the inch-pound range. Usually there is not enough overlap for one wrench to meet both needs.

If your motor has an aluminum block and heads - then your bolts will likely be the "torque to yield" variety (the instructions will say"torque to ___ then turn 90 degrees). If so - then take the earlier advice and replace the bolts.

Joe

normde2001 · Dec 4, 2005

I don't know if it has been mentioned or not, but be sure and drain the coolant before loosening the head bolts. I know a lot of 1st timers fail to do this and end up with a big mess.

larso1 · Dec 4, 2005

Hey Jeff,
You wrote: "It is recommended to use a cylinder hone with the correct grit stones for the particular piston rings you are using. The ring manufacturer should specify a certain grit stone and hone pattern for their particular rings. Again, you can use the glazebreaker but you may drastically shorten the life of the rings depending on the application."

Is there a cylinder hone out there other than the 3-stone spring-tensioned flat type? I'm not an expert mechanic or machinist so that's why I'm asking, but if that is what you are referring to, how can you get full contact of flat stone faces on used cylinder walls that are not perfectly cylindrical from top to bottom? You can if they are freshly bored out but not when they are hour glass shaped from wear. That's why my diesel mechanic friend lent me a ball ("dingleberry") hone to do mine. Worked great and gave a nice cross hatching pattern from top to bottom of cylinder. Good compression and no smoke from the first startup. Just asking,

Bill

Mike_Lipke · Dec 5, 2005

Sorry, I meant to say i have the 1/2 inch TW, and use the 1/2 to 3/8 adaptor if i have to use 3/8 sockets. This has served me well and done everything i have needed. I don't use a torque wrench for fasteners like pan bolts, valve cover bolts, etc. Just for crank, flywheel, head, rod and bearing caps. Not that fastidious on that stuff. Heads really do need a TW though, and if a guy needs just one, 1/2 should do it.

jeffmazz · Dec 5, 2005

Bill, if the cylinders are too far out of round you should bore the block as you mentioned. A three sided flat stone hone will make contact in an hourglass shaped cylinder from top to bottom. If the cylinder is too far out of shape for a flat stone hone to make a pattern from top to bottom then it needs to be bored. The ball hone can be used but they are usually a very course grit and are not recommended for final honing. As I said in my earlier post they can be used for final honing but it depends on the application. If you are using hard rings (Moly) you can probably get away with it. If your rings are cast iron you can kiss them goodbye in short order. They will work for a while but they definately will not last very long. I'm pretty sure all diesel engines use moly rings so you should be OK.

Best Regards,
Jeff

VA_Joe · Dec 5, 2005

If you plan to remove the engine then have a machine shop prep the block for you. Once you go through the trouble of removing the engine - you might as well bring it back to "like new" condition. Your local machine shop will have the right tools to measure the block and make the necessary correctons.

Usually a machine shop will charge by the cylinder for the block and by the valve for the head. Although I don't know the specifics of your engine (i.e. the number of cylinders/valves) - you can probably get the machining done for a few hundred (including the hot tanking).

The problem with in-chassis repairs is controlling the movement of the junk that will fly around during the rebuild process (from the honing, cleaning of gaskets and etc.). The small particles of metal and grit can cause problems if not cleaned out prior to reassembly. Keeping the engine clean is the most difficult problem with this type of rebuild and as such it is usually not recommended. As said previously - the "big diesels" have easily removeable sleeves that make in-chassis rebuilding a piece of cake. Although your tractor may have removeable sleeves (aluminum blocks will have them out of neccessity) it is very possible that the changeout will require removal of the block. On cars (which is my experience) - it is rare to ever have to remove these sleeves since they are designed with enough thickness to survive multiple rebuildings.

My two cents. Good luck and have fun.

Joe

tlbuser · Dec 7, 2005

(
As said previously - the "big diesels" have easily removeable sleeves that make in-chassis rebuilding a piece of cake. Although your tractor may have removeable sleeves (aluminum blocks will have them out of neccessity) it is very possible that the changeout will require removal of the block.
Joe ) I don't understand this comment. On any sleeved engine, an in-chassis rebuild should be very doable. Might have to rent / borrow a sleeve puller, but......

VA_Joe · Dec 7, 2005

On the aluminum block automotive engines that I've seen - the inserts appear to be a press fit. I figure it would be the same for the small diesels. Then again - my wife says I'm usually wrong ...

Joe