Newbie quesstion Proper operation of Diesels

[EdC]

Have a question for all of you that are a LOT more familiar with operating diesels than I am. My wife and I have been pulling sage brush out of the field in front of our house. I wrap the chain around the trunk and my wife runs the tractor pulling the sagebrush out. Some of the big plants are a strain for our 2320 and in a lot of cases we are spinning the rear wheels.

Now on to the question. We have the throttle at about 2900 rpm but when there is going to be a bit of time, 5 minutes or more, in between pulling plants out, say for loading the truck to take the stuff to where we burn it, I throttle the tractor back to about 1600 rpm or so. Is that the right way to operate the tractor or am I messing up?

Also would be really interested in a cure for sage brush that does not include the phrase D8.

Thanks

 

[RoyJackson]

As far as lowering the RPM between pulling the brush...you're doing fine. Deere does not recommend extended idling as it wastes fuel and can soot up the injectors. I think you'll find this in your manual. However, Deere does not define "idling".
Anyway, I'll also idle my 790 at 1500 ± 100 RPM for 5 minutes or so. If you know it's going to be closer to 10 minutes, I'd shut it down (watch your temp gage though!)

It sounds like you need more traction. If you have a ballast box, you could rig that to the 3PH since you're pulling with the draw bar (you are using the draw bar, correct?)
It might help to dig or break up the dirt on the side opposite of the pull. This may aid in the brush pulling up and out.

Make sure your wife has her belt on and your ROPS is unfolded.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Sounds like you're basically doing it right - use the rpm you need while pulling, not exceeding your rated RPM, and then reduce throttle to some sort of idle while not working the tractor. I would not go alway the way to 0 throttle at least with a new tractor, per the advice of my Deere dealer - but some idle a little above the low idle is fine, and it sounds like that's what you're doing.

Is there any way you can cut some or all of the roots before pulling, to ease the pull? Or would that simply cause regrowth? I don't deal with sagebrush here in Michigan.

As for your sagebrush problem, I think a John Deere 1050C, or a CAT D9 or D11 would do wonders (and I'm avoiding the word you said to avoid).

 

[EdC]

Roy

We are definitely using the draw bar, my wife is belted in and the ROPS is extended, after 28 years in the AF working with explosives I am a bit of a safety nut.

I don't have a ballast box but did have the scraper blade on for additional weight. Guess I need to add the ballast box to the List.

Z, you are right, you did not mention D8.

Sagebrush, at least the variety here, will come back from the root. Takes awhil but it does.

Thanks for answering the big question I had about the idling down between heavy use. I appreciate it.

 

[mars1952]

Have a question for all of you that are a LOT more familiar with operating diesels than I am. My wife and I have been pulling sage brush out of the field in front of our house. I wrap the chain around the trunk and my wife runs the tractor pulling the sagebrush out. Some of the big plants are a strain for our 2320 and in a lot of cases we are spinning the rear wheels.

Now on to the question. We have the throttle at about 2900 rpm but when there is going to be a bit of time, 5 minutes or more, in between pulling plants out, say for loading the truck to take the stuff to where we burn it, I throttle the tractor back to about 1600 rpm or so. Is that the right way to operate the tractor or am I messing up?

Also would be really interested in a cure for sage brush that does not include the phrase D8.

Thanks

When you pull a tree/scrub/stump going forward with at tractor the center of gravity is transfered to the rear of the tractor. The rear wheels become the pivot point. Rear rollover becomes a possiblity. If you add ballast you need to add it to the front of the tractor. If you have a FEL put some rocks or dirt in the bucket. Loaded rear tires or axle weights will help with traction but increased traction also increases the possibility of rear rollover. A box blade or any 3PH implement with a rigid hook up on the rear should prevent any rear rollover.
I pull scrub and small trees with my JD 4300 using this method: I use a short piece of chain hooked to the top link hook of my imatch. I lift the rock shaft to pull the scrub I do not drive forward. Some times I have to do two pulls to get out deep roots. Again weight on the front of the tractor helps keep all four wheels on the ground. When I have to pull large scrub or even trees up to six inches I use my 4X4 pick-up. My pick-up weighs almost two and a half times as much as my tractor and I can put weight in the bed. Rear Rollover is almost impossible in a pick-up but you could snap a chain. I use a grade 80 chain and hooks. In case of a snapped chain I have a small tire tied to the chain at about the middle.
Idling the tractor at zero throttle for 15 minutes will not hurt it. It takes about 5-15 minutes of zero throttle idle time to use as much fuel as it takes to start the diesel. Every time you start your diesel unburnt fuel works its way past your rings and into the oil. Also a diesel engine needs to be warm to run at peak efficacy on a hot day the tractor can sit longer without cooling down. Another factor to consider is that on a new tractor every hour on the meter takes at least $25 off the resale value. So you have to take all these factors into account when you decide whether to let the tractor idle or shut it off. When you do decide to idle your tractor set the throttle to zero. If the tractor needed to idle at 1500 RPM John Deere would recommend that the zero throttle be set to 1500 RPM.
Good Luck, Marshall

 

[Z-Michigan]

When you do decide to idle your tractor set the throttle to zero. If the tractor needed to idle at 1500 RPM John Deere would recommend that the zero throttle be set to 1500 RPM.
Good Luck, Marshall

I was going based on the advice of my Deere dealer, who gave me a lengthy explanation of a problem called "Wet stack" that he says happens with new diesels that are left to idle at lowest speed for any length of time, without being used hard for most of their time. This is from a Deere dealer that sells mostly ag equipment and has 8 locations. I don't have any other information to confirm this claim.

 

[mars1952]

I was going based on the advice of my Deere dealer, who gave me a lengthy explanation of a problem called "Wet stack" that he says happens with new diesels that are left to idle at lowest speed for any length of time, without being used hard for most of their time. This is from a Deere dealer that sells mostly ag equipment and has 8 locations. I don't have any other information to confirm this claim.

I have done a little research on " wet stacking" using Google. It seems that wet stacking is a condition that occurs at high idle low load conditions in stand by generators mostly in very cold weather. High idle in this case means that the engine is run continuously (days on end) at a high idle speed so that there is less lag when standby power is called for. When you follow these links and read for yourself please note that the articles all say that the problem of wet stacking occurs at "high idle". Go to any truck stop at night and you will see row after row of big diesels idling all night. In recent years there has been a movement to encourage truckers to not idle their engines all night but the reasons are pollution and fuel use not Wet Stacking.
Check out these links:
Read the middle of this page
The Effects of Long Term High Idle Operation on Diesel Engines.
Load Banks for Prevention of Wet-Stacking in Diesel Generator Sets
Wikipedia Wet Stacking
When you start a cold diesel engine small amounts of unburnt fuel go into the exhaust and engine oil. Wet Stacking seems to occur when the engine is at high idle and or cold. If the temperatures are very low and the tractor engine is not staying warm then you might get some Wet stacking at low idle but not any more than you would by cold starting the engine. I shut my engine off if I am not going to be using it for awhile but I try to keep the engine warm. If it is really cold I put cardboard in front of the radiator.
Good Luck, Marshall
P.S. I left out all the links to forums since most of them are just some ones opinion and not backed up by any evidence.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Very useful information, thanks Marshall. Another example of why this board is so useful. Not sure whether I misunderstood the dealer guy or if he misunderstood how to avoid the problem.

So, with that information, I will be idling only at the minimum speed, and trying to moderate my idle time - no more than 5-10 minutes without work in between.

 

[mars1952]

Very useful information, thanks Marshall. Another example of why this board is so useful. Not sure whether I misunderstood the dealer guy or if he misunderstood how to avoid the problem.

So, with that information, I will be idling only at the minimum speed, and trying to moderate my idle time - no more than 5-10 minutes without work in between.

That sounds like a good plan. We all tend to get overly attached to our tractors and act like mother hens over them.
Marshall

 

[LWB]

Along the same lines, but I haven't it seen mentioned here before, my JD dealer recommends either off road fuel or upper gear lube. He says a lot of the CUT's he sees in the shop have "dry diesel" (over the road fuel) related problems. I didn't know there was a difference, except for the dye and the price.

 

[RoyJackson]

Along the same lines, but I haven't it seen mentioned here before, my JD dealer recommends either off road fuel or upper gear lube. He says a lot of the CUT's he sees in the shop have "dry diesel" (over the road fuel) related problems. I didn't know there was a difference, except for the dye and the price.

I haven't heard of this. Can you be more specific about his concerns?

I'm wondering if he's talking about the low sulphur diesel being sold at stations now. This fuel is designed for low emissions. The lower sulphur content reduces the lubricity of the fuel, apparently.

I did a search. I reckon this article may answer my question:
Latest Penn State College of Agricultural Sciences News

Any thoughts on additives?

 

[orlo]

Hi:

I haven't pulled 'out' a bunch of stuff but I have pulled over small trees (after making a cut) with my 2305. One thing though is that I pull from the drawbar hole, not the 3pt hitch.

If you can pull from a point below the axle you'll actually help pull the front end down instead of up (right at the axle it would be neutral). There are two things trying to lift the front of the tractor - the torque from the axles (Which we don't effect by moving the attachment point except via traction), and any 'pulling' force above the rear axle - A very high point will pull you over easily - Picture fastening a rope to the top of the rops, you'd wheelie easlily. Basically the attachment point is either helping the torque flip over the tractor (higher than the rear axle) or counter acting the torque reaction (below the rear axle). [neutral right at the rear axle].

The drawbar can also be pretty high and the center link is also pretty high IMHO.

A disadvantage of a low attachment point is less traction than if you fasten above as by fastening above you do shift weight onto the rear wheels adding traction but as mentioned previously a reverse rollover can happen.

 

[HomeBrew2]

Whenever possible, I use a 4" strap for pulling bushes or old stumps. I leave some slack in the strap and yank it in a few pulls rather than just one. Some I have to pull pretty hard but always in "inertia" pulls, I guess you could say to avoid spinning wheels.

 

[RalphVa]

I'm surprised the idle speed on your tractor isn't about 1,000 rpm. Mine was set for about 1,500 when delivered, but the manual says (for my 4010) 1,000 after breakin. I readjusted the throttle cable to get this after a few hours on the engine. This is what I throttle back to when not working it and after it has warmed up. I'd shut it down if you're idling much more than a couple minutes, particularly on a slope (for safety, brake on AND in gear, with engine off). Think on my 240D, the idle speed is about 850.

As another contributor mentioned, folks in the north have often left their diesels idling (at 850-1,000 typically) all night rather than risk their fuel waxing up in the winter. There are fuel additives to prevent this, as does 1/3 to 1/2 kero in the fuel, but this isn't what you asked about.

Another contributor pointed out a VERY IMPORTANT safety consid for working with chains. ALWAYS plan for where it might snap to if it breaks. My father once connected a chain to our car and went to pull it with our tractor. The chain snapped and made a nice chain-like-impression gully down the hood of the car. Fortunately, it was just short of breaking the windshield. If I were to use a chain from the back end, I'd make something to fit between the ROPS standards behind the seat to protect the driver in case the chain snapped.

Basically, working with diesels is about the same as with gas engines. Diesels will use far less gas while idling for long periods though. Most important thing is to keep them revved up enough when working them. Keep that oil moving through those bearings and over hot surfaces, to both lubricate and to cool them.

 

[mars1952]

I did a search. I reckon this article may answer my question:
Latest Penn State College of Agricultural Sciences News

Any thoughts on additives?

It is very interesting that such a small concentration of biodiesel will act as lubricant (Penn St article). I think that I will buy some Biodiesel to use as an additive.
Marshall

 

[EdC]

Wow, I get back from work and have all sorts of good info, thanks everybody.

To explain a little farther so you folks don't think I am putting my wife in jeopardy , I am pulling from below the rear axle using the drawbar mounting hole by attaching a clevis to the end of the drawbar. We do have the rear blade on and lowered until it is only about an inch above the chain. That way if the chain were to break the rear blade would take the brunt of it.

The chain is 5/16 inch thick links so this is seriously overkill. The reason I ended up using the chain is that we have a lot of lava out here and the rock will start cutting a rope pretty quickly. I thought about using a strap Homebrew2 but thought the strap would fray just like the rope.

Mars1952 next time I do this we will load up the front bucket with some rocks, we sure have rocks handy. Come to think of it I may just pick up a few weights, the bracket is already on the tractor. I do need to check the manual and see what my idle is supposed to be and lower it to specks, the tractor has about 30 hrs on it so that should be enough of a "break in" don't you think?

Again, thanks everybody for the good advice. I don't post here very often but I sure am learning a lot reading.

 

[DrainPondDesign]

Careful about using straps, ropes or wire cable.

You are using chain because of cutting concerns but chain also does NOT stretch and store energy (i.e. rubber band) which is very good & what you want for safety.

However straps, ropes or cables when they break or come free can do lots of damage depending on how much energy is stored & the driver is right in the line of fire. How much damage? Anything from a sting to being cut in half!

Good luck & keep others away when applying a strain to any strap, rope cable or chain.

 

[RoyJackson]

"the tractor has about 30 hrs on it so that should be enough of a "break in" don't you think?"
No...I'd stick with the 50 hour break in duration, especially for the oil change. My dealer told me it's better to go beyond the 50 hours for break in (within reason...60 hours or so) then less.

"You are using chain because of cutting concerns but chain also does NOT stretch and store energy (i.e. rubber band) which is very good & what you want for safety.
However straps, ropes or cables when they break or come free can do lots of damage depending on how much energy is stored & the driver is right in the line of fire. How much damage? Anything from a sting to being cut in half!
You are using chain because of cutting concerns but chain also does NOT stretch and store energy (i.e. rubber band) which is very good & what you want for safety."
Good points! But even though the chain doesn't stretch as much, there's still a strong potential to spring back if it parts. Prehaps not as much as wire rope (nasty stuff, IMHO), but enough to do some damage.
I'd read a long time ago about getting an old fire hose (try your local fire hall) to sleeve your chain to reduce the any spring back if the chain parts. I've never had a chain part, so I can't document the validity, but it sounds right. Getting a dry rotted hose (try 1½" or 2") from your local fire dept. shouldn't be too difficult (especially if it's a volunteer dept.).

"It is very interesting that such a small concentration of biodiesel will act as lubricant (Penn St article). I think that I will buy some Biodiesel to use as an additive.
Marshall"
I'm not sure how big a deal this would be with CUT's considering the relatively low hours we put on these machines. That article and the links provided did give me an insight to the problem and potential solutions. I'm going to look into an additive (probably Stanadyne).
If I used biodiesel as an additive, I wonder how much one would have to use, and how frequently?

 

[mars1952]

I'd read a long time ago about getting an old fire hose (try your local fire hall) to sleeve your chain to reduce the any spring back if the chain parts.

RoyJackson: I like this idea and I am going to try to get some fire hose.

"It is very interesting that such a small concentration of biodiesel will act as lubricant (Penn St article). I think that I will buy some Biodiesel to use as an additive.
Marshall"
I'm not sure how big a deal this would be with CUT's considering the relatively low hours we put on these machines. That article and the links provided did give me an insight to the problem and potential solutions. I'm going to look into an additive (probably Stanadyne).
If I used biodiesel as an additive, I wonder how much one would have to use, and how frequently?

RoyJackson: The article states "Using just a B1 blend (1 percent biodiesel with 99 percent regular diesel fuel) improves lubricity of ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel by as much as 65 percent."(This is from the Penn St link) Biodiesel is cheap per gallon compared to any additive. It would probably be cheaper to use straight biodiesel instead of regular diesel plus an additive. I think that I will add as much as 5% biodiesel to my fuel or maybe switch over to 100% biodiesel. Here in the Asheville area Biodiesel is readily available.
Here is a link about biodiesel lubricity
Here is a link to Biodiesel.org
Good Luck, Marshall

 

[jbrumberg]

Mars1952:

I would not recommend running B100 in a tractor especially in cold weather. NH recommends up to B20 only. I had enough trouble with diesel gelling with ULSD this winter when temperatures dropped into the teens and moreso when the temperatures dropped into the single digits or lower. People running biodiesel had even more difficulties. I used a "double shot" of Power Service (white bottle) to manage my gelling challenges as well as increase the "lubricity" of my ULSD. Another thing to consider is that both ULSD and bioddiesel tend to "lift" the sediment/junk/residue in your tank and fuel lines which can lead to fuel line, injector, and fuel filter clogs. Tractors do not like gelling and/or fuel line clogs . I would suggest that you check the numerous threads in the TBN Fuel & Lubricants Forum especially those posts by DieselPower (I apologize to the other informed contributors and would have referenced you guys as well, but I am not home and operating off someone else's computer.). I would also advise caution when attaching anything to your drawbar. Jay