Newbie questions: Draft control?

hsvhobbit · Mar 29, 2006

Greetings, all; Newbie here, never owned a tractor before and trying to get a handle on all the options to look at before I drop some hard earned money on one.

At the moment the Kubota L5030 looks like a strong contender for my money but I've a few questions I'd love to get some help with if ya'll don't mind..First to the uses I expect to put this toy..errr I mean tool...I've got 38 acres of currently hayfields. I'm going to need to be able to mow this and am being advised that a 6' bushhog is probably my best route for that. In the near future my wife and I want to start planting maybe 10 acres or so of this to produce berries and various veggies and are looking at using a tiller for that task...Don't know if that's the best tool for that or not...Is my newness showing yet? Fairly soon we're going to be working over an area leading down to one of our ponds into a manicured and landscaped area and think that a box blade would be nearly ideal for that.

I've come across reference to a 'Draft control' which is an option on the 'bota...what is this, and is this something that's good to have? I have a faint clue but could ya help me? For the box blade if I want to angle it so as to cut a flat area on my sloped hill section (something like a step for a sitting area) is this adjustable and if so is it manual or hyd controllable?

The dealer says that he can add extra valves to the rig if needed, I just don't know if they're needed...I'd like to get it set up right when I buy the tractor so as to be able to negotiate the best long-term deal and not have to return to the dealer and get stung with add-on's...

I know my descriptions aren't all that good but I'd sure appreciate any help ya'll can provide.

plowrup · Mar 29, 2006

The best way I can think of the describe Draft Control would be, let's say we are using a Moldboard Plow-now, based on the curvature of the Moldboard, it wants to head to China (suck itself downward). Draft Control (different types of sensing used based on age, Manufacture, type, etc) will pull the Plow up so that you can maintain a constant depth. It can be Hydraulic, sensed off of the three point lower or upper Pins, Electronic, and other means. There-Clear as mud /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif?

hsvhobbit · Mar 29, 2006

ummm, not having a clue in the world what a moldboard plow is, I'm gonna have to just interpret from the rest of what you said ...so a draft control is a GOOD thing to have, or is it almost manditory?

Soundguy · Mar 29, 2006

Plow.. ta thing that goes behind your tractor an lays over the soil.. makes furrows.

And I'd like to add some to that 'draft' explanation above.

The draft control does not work at keeping donstant depth.. it works at keeping constant draft, that is.. whereever you have the lever set.. that amount of draft ( pull / load) ont he tractor is maintained. If the plow starts to run to deep.. or the soil gets thicker/harder.. or an obstruction is hit.. the hyds pull the plow up to lower the draft... etc. Usually on single controll hyds, the 3pt lift lever is setting how sensitive the draft sensing is.. ( older fords for instance.. you flipped a lever to turn draft on or off, and then used the hytrol handle for sensitivity ) many units have 2 handles.. etc. ( some newer tractor.. like NH for instance.. have a seperate handle for draft sensitivity.. adjust from 0 (0ff) and up, and works in conjunction with the 3pt lift...

Soundguy

DUMBDOG · Mar 29, 2006

To operate the box blade with the hydraulics, you will a top and tilt, either from Kubota or an after market one. If you go the after market route make sure that it is designed for purpose intended.

What the top and tilt will do is adjust the top link and one of the side links. This will enable you to put a slant on the blade with the side link and the top link will allow you to take more or less of a bite with the box blade.

To operate this you will need two remotes.

As far as the draft control is concerned you should not need it for the box blade or the tiller.

Welcome to TBN.

DUMBDOG · Mar 29, 2006

Here is a link to a after market top and tilt kit.

TOP AND TILT

DUMBDOG · Mar 29, 2006

For a picture of a plow. Go to one on our advertisers here. Click on the link for used equipment. Then click used tillage equipment. Click on a description for a picture.

PLOWS

Farmwithjunk · Mar 29, 2006

If you ever have to opportunity to use a mounted plow on a tractor with draft control, you will feel a "bump" every time the plow hits a hard spot. The plow will actually raise a bit, pulling down on the rear wheels, in addition to lessening the load on the motor. Harry Ferguson "invented" the 3-point system, as well as draft control. His concept was to permit a smaller, lighter tractor to pull the same plow size as a much heavier tractor. As soon as the draft load lightens a bit the plow will settle back to it's original position. After a few years of 3 point hitch developement, most tractors using 3-point went to a system that allowed "draft control" for tools like plows, and "position control" for tools like mowers. Even later on in the developement, most tractors employed a system that allowed some use of BOTH systems at the same time.

Look at an older tractor like a Ferguson TO-30 or a Ford 8N and you'll see a spring right ahead of the top link where it attaches to the tractor. That is the "master control spring". That is where the first 3-point hitches "measured" the draft load as the plow compressed the top link. When Ferguson won his lawsuit against Ford, they changed to draft sensing through the lower links.

rambler · Mar 29, 2006

You'll never miss the draft control. Unless you plan to do a lot of plowing. And since you don't even know what a plow is - don't bother.

You will want rear hyd remotes. Those come in handy, & at the least make your tractor more valuable when you sell it. Rear remotes can control many add-on implements you don't even know you want yet.

I can get into hours of detail on this, but the net result will be:

Forget the draft control. You'll never miss it.

Get the rear hydraulic remotes. You'll kick yourself as you add them later because you will need them.

--->Paul

Toolguy · Mar 29, 2006

What rambler said. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Soundguy · Mar 29, 2006

( When Ferguson won his lawsuit against Ford, they changed to draft sensing through the lower links. )

Hmm.. you sure about that /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Every ford with a 3pt up thru the hundred series still had the toplink sensing connection and big draft spring. ( I can post links to online parts houses speccing things.. like that draft spring and hyd top cover draft components from 53 and up.. that's post ferguson.... ) starting somewhere in the thousand series they switched to adifferent topling sensing system that did not have the big visible spring, but did have a compression sensitive pivoting toplink connection. This is evident up thru my 1975 ford 5000, and even on my 2002 NH 7610s. I've never seen anything but fixed lower link pins on a for tractor... with connecting pins or clevis's on the axle trumpets. You can hit online parts houses and see the hyd top cover parts for the draft sensing components..

I do believe that some other manufacturers used some other draft sensing hitches.. perhaps casi/IH/allis chalmers.. not sure.. havn't messed with their proprietary hitches mutc ( snap. eagle, etc.. ).. But ford hitches didn't use lower link draft sensing... ( can't vouch for the industrial models... not as much exp with them ).

Soundguy

Farmwithjunk · Mar 29, 2006

OK, but Ford was forced to CHANGE the way the draft sensing worked after the lawsuit. That was the result of Ferguson holding patents on his idea. The change took place with the NAA/Jube. I THOUGHT they went to lower link sensing. The sensing wouldn't be through the lower link attachment to the trumpets, but through th e rockshaft. That would still enable the draft sensing to be handled through the lift cover as opposed to the pins in the trumpets. By the time the suit was settled, most of Fergusons patents were starting to expire anyway.

Farmwithjunk · Mar 29, 2006

Letme add this. Don't forget I've had a number of Fords too. (Two 3000's, a 5000, and a 3400 Ind.) Very familiar with their 3-point system.

5030 · Mar 29, 2006

hsvhobbit:

Forget the draft control. The 5030 isn't capable of tillage anyway, well, small scale tillage.....

Get the remotes and forget anything you ever heard about draft control. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Soundguy · Mar 29, 2006

( The sensing wouldn't be through the lower link attachment to the trumpets, but through th e rockshaft. That would still enable the draft sensing to be handled through the lift cover as opposed to the pins in the trumpets. )

Yeah.. but the topcover 3pt lift arm rockshaft was not part of the draft sensing.. no feedback there.. the big 3pt lift arms were simply couple dto the hyd piston thru a big dogbone, and the piston rode free in the cyl bor, under the hyd cover... toplink draft sensing was transmitting all the feedback...

( Letme add this. Don't forget I've had a number of Fords too. (Two 3000's, a 5000, and a 3400 Ind.) Very familiar with their 3-point system.
)

Um.. apparently not... and I don't care for the pee'ing contest.. but the draft sensing was from linkages under the top hyd cover via tension/compression on the toplink rocker, via loads from the 3pt geometry... ( not any specific thing to do with the lower links, except geometry, and a pivot point... ) I've got every ford parts manual for agricultural tractors from 39 up thru 75. The hyd/topcover guts were the same from 39 thru 46, changed in 47 for the 8n to add position control. So far still using the same basic design of a 2.85gpm scotch yoke hyd 'belly' pump. After the lawsuit, ford had to change the hyd pump, location, and the valving. Instead of using a input valve that essentiall choked of fthe intake to the belly pump.. ford went to an engine mounted live hyd pump that used an unloading valve. The pumps were originally a 2.8 gpm vane pump.. but they were dicey, and ford went to a piston pump. They made retro's for the 52-53-54 naa of a similar flow to the oem 2.8 gpm pump, and the new piston pump for the hundred series was a 4gpm job.. though both piston pumps were bolt up similar, if you swapped from vane to piston you had to swap manifold/tubes.

Ford dinked with the draft controlls under the hyd top cover just a tad... changed some geometry between the naa and hundred series controlls.. but they esentiall worked the same. And the unloading valve, in various forms, was used up untill modern times. Hit Smiths used ford parts And you can see a few old pumps, and the draft control linkages. the draft springs and linkages change a bit on the 53-54 to the 55 and up.. but are very similar.

My point was that the lower links were just anchors, and integral part of the 3pt geometry.. all the draft sensing was via the linkages under the top cover, via the toplink. And I've got lots of fords too...

Soundguy

KiotiJohn · Mar 29, 2006

I think you would be an excellent candiate to buy Muhammad's (One of the TBN creators) book. It tells a multitude about what compact tractors are, can use, and what you may need in your situation. It saves a lot of time searching for information, in a concise document you can read on your computer, or print out as needed.
I agree, you don't NEED draft control unless you're going to use a plough (plow).
John

hsvhobbit · Mar 30, 2006

WOW, Thanks for the advice and help guys. So I can pass on the Draft control since at most I'm looking at small scale tillage. It does sound like a 'top and tilt' setup IS a good thing to get.

The L5030 comes with one rear hyd control according to the salesman. Any suggestions on how many extra I should see about getting added?

And as far as knowing what a plow is and what it does? Yup, THAT much I know, just didn't have a clue what a 'moldboard' plow was/is /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DUMBDOG · Mar 30, 2006

Top and tilt will require a total of two remotes, so one extra. This would be for a standard box blade. I have three on my 4630, yet I have not used any yet, but plan to.

KiotiJohn · Mar 30, 2006

( The L5030 comes with one rear hyd control according to the salesman. Any suggestions on how many extra I should see about getting added?)
You could just use the one outlet if you only wanted to use TOP. That would adjust the length of the top link your tractor, allowing you to adjust the aggressiveness of say a box blade. If you wanted to dig in more, you would adjust the top link to move the rippers into a more aggressive stance.
You would need to add another outlet to operate the TILT, which would adjust the height of your right hand lift arm allowing the implement to cut more on one side than the other, etc.
You could always start out with just TOP and add tilt later, but you may find it less expensive to order the tractor with both outlets. Of course, you will need to make sure the spools are provided so that you have something to operate the remotes with.
TOP will probably be your most used function as it can and will be used for just about anything you put on the hitch.
John

daTeacha · Mar 30, 2006

Getting back to the question about the plow, the "moldboard" is part of your basic dirt plow. It also has a plowpoint and a plowshare. One cuts through the soil, another keeps things more or less in a straight path and the third rolls the newly cut soil over, turning the top layer of plant matter under and exposing the fresh soil for discing, harrowing, planting, etc. The moldboards can have extensions added to them like little wings to increase their effectiveness in some conditions. You can also get a disc that runs in front of the point to cut the sod so it can be turned more easily.

A lot of plows are sitting quietly rusting into oblivion since no-till farming has become popular, so if you want one, figure out what your tractor will pull in your soil and go to local auctions. You can probably find one for close to junk metal prices.