No Guts HI gear HST

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="green"> I am MUCH more angry about the stuff that I can't do in low range. High range is a pain, but if I have to shift to low so be it. When I can't shift any lower but still can't move at all, then I can't get work done and it is quite embarrasing at that. I would just once like to see it with a full bucket of something other than sand or mulch (those are the only things I can push in to far enough to get a full bucket load).
</font>

I'm not sure what conditions you are talking about getting your machine to stop, but I have "stopped" every tractor I have ever driven save one, and that was my favorite Oliver, an antique Super 55 Diesel, and when it didn't stop I scared myself because it started to lift the front wheels to high while still pulling and that was a very discomforting feeling. If you are driving straight into a settled dirtpile, I think it is pretty normal to stop the tractor (or with a gear machine end up not moving with the wheels spinning). You may be asking more from the tractor than is reasonable? Not that that helps with the other issues, the 2 are probably unrelated. Or maybe I am simply misreading what you are writing?

 

[getut]

Specs: CK20HST w/ 54" FEL. No wheel weights, no filled tires. Just the weight of the tractor. A box blade doesn't even add to the downward weight (just pull resistence) when down engaging the ground.

Example 1:
I can be pulling my box blade in low range. As it fills I have to start backing off on the HST pedal. It eventually will stall and refuse to move at any level of pedal input. The tires don't even spin (not even slowly). I have to lift the box blade and reposition.

Example 2:
In my mostly clay area. Regularly I cannot even push the bucket TEETH into the ground without stalling the HST in low range. Much less any actual bucket edge. Again... its not a traction issue. It is not even spinning.

Example 3:
I can put the bucket up against a tree on flat level grassy ground. Even in 2 wheel drive low range, it will not turn the R4 tires. Much less 4 wheel drive. Again.. no weight but the tractor and FEL itself so its not like there is unusually high traction.

Example 4,5,6 etc: All the high range problems I have already posted about numerous times.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

OK

I'd say you have a real problem. I just wasn't sure if I was reading it right.

 

[depratt_equip]

Has your dealer checked the charge pressure on the HST unit? Have they tired replacing the high pressure relief valve?

 

[getut]

Bob, I read your post again. This is semi OT for this particular thread and basically a mute point at this particular instant, but I want to answer a question with a question.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I think it is pretty normal to stop the tractor (or with a gear machine end up not moving with the wheels spinning). You may be asking more from the tractor than is reasonable? )</font>

Why does it seem that there is an unwritten law that people expect less from an HST??????

I don't. If it is marketed and hyped to be a tractor. I expect it to perform like a tractor. Tractors pull stuff. If a hydrostatic tractor can't pull nearly the same as a geared model just like itself (minus the small loss from the HST), then it is a bad design and an undersized HST unit for the power the tractor can put out. PERIOD. That is what I expect of a $15000 machine. Show me a Bobcat that can't handle the power from the engine. A Bobcat will push into material until it chokes itself down or spins. The HST is properly sized.

Keep in mind.. this is straight from Kioti's site in regards to the HST:
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( "To better handle the increased horsepower of the CK20H, it has been equipped with a performance proven, heavy duty HST drive unit")</font>
It is not looking like it is heavy enough.

I simply don't agree with the mindset of settling for shoddy work or cheaping out in the design stage. I expect a tractor to pull till the engine quits. I don't care whether its gear, HST, or rubber band.

The reality of the situation is that in the compact tractor market, that doesn't exist. I knew I would be left wanting a little in that department, but not to the extreme that it is. I can't get work done.

I hate having to qualify each statement I make as not being for sure yet because I havn't gotten Kioti out here, but here goes... Everything above relates to my tractor alone so far. I am still waitng to see if it is a problem, or if their going to tell me all of them are like mine and there is nothing they can do.

 

[getut]

Thanks for asking Jon.

I don't know exactly what they did. I brought it to them after they told me about the possible spring problem. They called me a week later and told me it was ready, but that they didn't do anything to it. It tested fine on the pressure at the 4 points on the HST unit they were instructed to test (from Kioti).

He also showed me where he had been playing on it with a pile that was all loose stuff and said it did fine there. My kids Tonka truck could push into a pile that was that busted up so it wasn't much of a test.

I have been trying to get Kioti in Wilson to do something ever since.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="blue"> Why does it seem that there is an unwritten law that people expect less from an HST??????

I don't. If it is marketed and hyped to be a tractor. I expect it to perform like a tractor. Tractors pull stuff. If a hydrostatic tractor can't pull nearly the same as a geared model just like itself (minus the small loss from the HST), then it is a bad design and an undersized HST unit for the power the tractor can put out. PERIOD. That is what I expect of a $15000 machine. Show me a Bobcat that can't handle the power from the engine. A Bobcat will push into material until it chokes itself down or spins. The HST is properly sized. </font>

I don't expect less, but I expect it to react differently. When using a sub-soiler recently I totally stopped the tractor to the point of killing the engine. I had not done that before. As it turned out, I had the angle of the blade set in such a way that the tractor was literally pulled against the ground so hard it stopped completely. Normally when I "stop" a tractor that has HST I get some slippage or spin in the tires and then they stop as the relief valve hits its limit, a gear machine will still stop, but the wheels will continue to spin. Given the same mass/weight, both machines will work their way into the same pile the same distance, but one will have its wheels continuing to spin the other won't. Again, I don't expect less work from the HST, I do, expect them to react a little differently. And when doing FEL work, I actually expect the work to be done faster with the HST machine. As for your Bobcat scenario, I think tractors are built with FELs as afterthoughts and a direct comparison is probably hard to justify, but in theory, they should be similar.

At this point I have no idea if there is a design flaw with the CK20 (undersized HST unit? improper valve settings? etc?) or if it is an issue with your machine. But I do generally agree with your thoughts.

 

[getut]

Whew. I'm getting tired for today. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thats it exactly. If you think it is OK for the wheels to stop turning on an HST tractor when the exact same model in a geared version would still be spinning trying to go forward, then you are expecting less out of an HST. You're example is a rare exception though... you almost had infinite traction, the harder you pull, the more traction you get. Stalling the wheels in that scenario is understandable.

If an HST unit won't spin the tires and the engine is still running strong, then either the HST unit or the pump is undersized and not able to transfer the power to the wheels.

Running strong are the key words though. I fully realize that to keep pump pressure up, the RPM's have to stay up. It is fully possible to overload the engine, start dropping RPM to a point that pressure drops and the wheels stop.. but that is a horse of a different color because in reality it is the engine that is overloading and not the HST or pump.

My engine barely changes speed at all (less than 300-400 RPMs), but yet the wheels are still stalled with only the weight of the tractor as listed in my examples above. So either something is grossly wrong, or something is grossly undersized.

 

[whenley]

All my tests were forward. I did not try reverse.

 

[pilonidal]

Wow Getut, I am just not having the problems that you are. I have a large, mostly clay, mound left over from the basement of my new house. I can't push into either more than a few inches, but I can come away with a full load with some bucket movement and constant power into the mound, with some wheel spinning, and shaving the dirt off as I raise the bucket.
I can pull my father-in-law's 12 x 6 ft spring harrow that has 30 springs in contact with ground with no strain as it skips along. Granted the soil has to be dry because if it's damp and it digs in I am not going anywhere as I found out in a low wet part of the field. That was just a test anyway, I knew it was to big for my machine. Just wanted to see if it could pull it. I am using his 45hp case to finish that hvy type of landscaping around the house.
I would be pissed also if a tree root or the edge of the contrete is enough to stop me in any gear. Something definetly needs adjustment in your HST. Is there a lemon law for tractors?