MossRoad
Super Moderator
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- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
Outlets wired backwards
- Thread starter Tdog
- Start date
- Views: 14909
Highbeam
Super Member
I just wired 15 amp outlets into a 20 amp circuit. All inspected and approved. You need to realize that the CB protects the wire. The 15 amp outlet can only be used by a 15 amp device due to the plug configuration, so you won't be pulling 20 amps through the 15 amp outlet. The breaker protects the wire. You can put 10-15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit and overload the circuit. The outlet rating isn't an issue. If you put a 30 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit then the CB will pop. If you put a 15 amp outlet on a 30 amp circuit then you can still only get 15 amps out of it since the appliance will only pull 15.
The only time you would wire in 20 amp outlets is if you needed to run a 20 amp appliance, not many folks have these appliances with the single sideways plug prong.
Oh yeah, the CB protects the wire.
JB4310
Super Member
Ok I think I'm following you, you are talking about switching the neutral?
I did guess that back in post #17 when I corrected my dumb remark about the switch. (sorry to everyone)
But since this thread is the only game in town today, at least in this forum
Here's a little exerciseLets look at this picture from Egons link closely, you have to zoom it in to see better, I see 2 problems with it. well one item is just odd but the other is a problem that I was always told not to do. Not sure why it wrong or if it even is against any code, but as I remember, it's not supposed to be done..
Anybody want to guess...
JB.
JB4310
Super Member
OK, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I don't think this is correct, Hope I'm not putting my foot in my mouth again
But what if you plugged 2 1800 watt electric heaters in the two receptacles? that would exceed 15 amps I think. Also, what if you plugged a power strip or an extension cord with a 3 way splitter, and you plug a bunch of power tools into it? You could draw as many amps as the breaker would allow easily exceeding the outlets 15 amp rating.
The way I understand it the breaker protects the outlet as well as the wire. I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.
JB
kenstrac
Platinum Member, RIP
BUT NOT YOUR OUTLET
This is up to your local inspector in a lot of area's #14 15 amp #12 20 amp wire all kitchen outlets should be #12 with a 20amp breaker and outlets or GFI.Also the stab in type 15 amp will not accept a 12 wire
Highbeam
Super Member
OK, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I don't think this is correct, Hope I'm not putting my foot in my mouth again
But what if you plugged 2 1800 watt electric heaters in the two receptacles? that would exceed 15 amps I think. Also, what if you plugged a power strip or an extension cord with a 3 way splitter, and you plug a bunch of power tools into it? You could draw as many amps as the breaker would allow easily exceeding the outlets 15 amp rating.
The way I understand it the breaker protects the outlet as well as the wire. I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.
JB
I passed an inspection by the state and a pre inspection by a professional electrician. I'm not an electrician but specifically asked this question since I always wire with 12 gauge.
I see what you are saying, you can always suck more than 15 amps through a 15 amp outlet with the proper splitters and power strips. The outlet could be asked to pass more than 15 amps.
I think you folks are right. It is more logical to match the outlet rating to the CB rating.
Highbeam
Super Member
Agreed on the amps through wire. I have never used stab in outlets though, I hope to never use them. Rather than hooking each wire around a screw I have found commercial grade outlets that allow you to push the wire into an open hole in the back and then tighten down the screw to pinch it just like in a GFCI outlet. This style of outlet is much more foolproof than a screw/hook and a better contact than the push in.
kenstrac
Platinum Member, RIP
The problem I see with the code is if all the wires are 20 amp and the outlets in bedrooms, living rooms and other area's are 15amp outlets Johnny homeowner goes to HD and buys a window A/C that pull 13.5 amps plugs it in the 15 amp recpt.starting amps are 40.5 what do you think happens to that outlet after time? And in this day and age and the cheapness of product you will have problems.Give me a 20 year old outlet and it weighs 2x more than a new one.
Years ago I wrote to the NEC asking to change the rule for allowing a plug to be used as switch for a motor of 1/3 Hp or less, they never corresponded back to me and I guess its still there.
The reason I wanted to change it was they never limited the voltage to 120v,
we had conveyor lines in this food processing plant that got washed down every night employee came in and plugged motor in just over his head and the plug blew.
They got water in the motor and the voltage was 480v@ 20A his hands were burnt and he had eye injuries.
Years ago I wrote to the NEC asking to change the rule for allowing a plug to be used as switch for a motor of 1/3 Hp or less, they never corresponded back to me and I guess its still there.
The reason I wanted to change it was they never limited the voltage to 120v,
we had conveyor lines in this food processing plant that got washed down every night employee came in and plugged motor in just over his head and the plug blew.
They got water in the motor and the voltage was 480v@ 20A his hands were burnt and he had eye injuries.
aczlan
Good Morning
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Which picture?
If you are talking about the first one (http://images.doityourself.com/stry/2041.jpg) I was always taught to have power/neutral come into the box and go into a wirenut with one wire for each outlet, switch, etc that went in the box. We would also do the same for ground, but with a crimped connector rather than a wirenut.
AaroN Z
JB4310
Super Member
Yup that's what I was talking about, never use a device as a connector, the device being the receptacle.
They show the load of the light circuit coming off the bottom set of screws on the receptacle. I got chastised by electrician for trying that in my own house, don't know if it's code or just good practice, but he said not even for other "down line" outlets on the same circuit.
Those extra set of screws are for if you want to have 2 separate circuits on the one double outlet or have a switch controlling one of the 2 outlets, in which case you break off that metal bridge on each side between the two screws. It does seem like a convenient and space saving way to avoid splicing wires in the box, but apparently not good practice. The one exception is with GFI's those do have a load side for feeding and protecting other outlets.
The other thing I found odd in the picture is it shows a ground wire going to the light fixture, Since there is no way to tell what the fixture is made of, it's not a big deal. But it looks like a standard porcelain or plastic ceiling fixture, in which case it wouldn't have a ground.
LOL, Isn't there any real electricians on TBN to straighten us out before we hurt ourselves
How does the saying go, "it's like the dumb leading the blind" or vice versa
JB.
buckeyefarmer
Epic Contributor
I know I did a quick read thru, but I didn't see any glaring bad information. Would you care to point it out?
The solution, as many have stated, is to fix the wiring.
Can be a PITA but you will sleep better. In normal cases, it won't hurt anything, but there are some good examples of the abnormal cases that do happen.
For the person concerned about an AC unit plugged into a 15A rated receptacle, if the AC unit needs 20A receptacle, it should have a 20A plug on it, so it won't fit in a 15A receptacle.
And never assume a light fixture is off just because you turned the switch off.
Many older houses built before the 70's don't have grounded outlets, although they might still have a ground wire in the box.
Watch out for the houses built in the 70's with aluminum wiring. I was helping someone once, and the outlets had been replaced with newer ones that were rated copper wire only, and the whole house was aluminum wire.
Willl
Elite Member
Wow,,,6 pages in 1 day.
BobRip
Elite Member
The outlets may not have been replaced. Many houses with aluminum wiring were originally wired with copper only outlets. What a mess.
hr3
Veteran Member
Don't feel bad Tdog.. Electrical questions here on a tractor site... I'm a master electrician..been one for many years.. When I first joined the site I tryed to help out some folks,,, .. Good luck to you.. call a local electrician if you think it's realy dangerous...
I'm a master electrician..been one for many years.. When I first joined the site I tryed to help out some folks,,, .. Good luck to you.. call a local electrician if you think it's realy dangerous...PILOON
Super Star Member
If I read correctly;
all black leads were reversed with white at both outlets and in the breaker pannel
which results in proper wireing but with wrong colors.
In fact your tester proved that out.
The guy was probably an automotive or aircraft tech where on DC black is generally ground (negative). Using 10 g suggests he was concerned with voltage drops which in the case of DC is more critical than with AC.
If my assumptions are correct, use black and white electrical tape to mark the change at both ends as is a fairly common practice.
My only then concern is breaker ratings which need to protect the wire from overheating and with #10 anything below 25 amps is safe.
15 amps for 14 g, 20 amps for 12 g.
A breaker is there to prevent wires from getting heated and igniting combustibles.
Naturally a wall switch needs to be on the hot (black) , and here your polarity tester won't work, but a el cheepo volt meter will.
A reading will show 110 v on hot (normal black) to ground but not on neutral (normal white) to ground.
Good luck, have fun!
all black leads were reversed with white at both outlets and in the breaker pannel
which results in proper wireing but with wrong colors.
In fact your tester proved that out.
The guy was probably an automotive or aircraft tech where on DC black is generally ground (negative). Using 10 g suggests he was concerned with voltage drops which in the case of DC is more critical than with AC.
If my assumptions are correct, use black and white electrical tape to mark the change at both ends as is a fairly common practice.
My only then concern is breaker ratings which need to protect the wire from overheating and with #10 anything below 25 amps is safe.
15 amps for 14 g, 20 amps for 12 g.
A breaker is there to prevent wires from getting heated and igniting combustibles.
Naturally a wall switch needs to be on the hot (black) , and here your polarity tester won't work, but a el cheepo volt meter will.
A reading will show 110 v on hot (normal black) to ground but not on neutral (normal white) to ground.
Good luck, have fun!
aczlan
Good Morning
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Actually, (IF I am following the thread correctly) his tester (which sounds like a plugin plug tester) says that the hot and neutral are reversed, See the post below:
Aaron Z
Highbeam
Super Member
That's what I thought too.
Chuck52
Veteran Member
This might be a stupid suggestion, too, but at least I am labeling it as such!
I have trouble enough bending 12 GA wire around screws, especially in cramped spaces, so 10 would really be a pain. Would it be reasonable to use crimp on connectors? That is, trim back the exposed 10 GA and crimp on a heavy duty u-type connector that would then go under the screw easily? I know you are adding a connection, and maybe that's totally against code, but it might make the job easier. A box of the insulated base connectors is fairly cheap. I have that type of connector in many of the instruments I work on carrying pretty heavy amps in some cases.
Chuck
I have trouble enough bending 12 GA wire around screws, especially in cramped spaces, so 10 would really be a pain. Would it be reasonable to use crimp on connectors? That is, trim back the exposed 10 GA and crimp on a heavy duty u-type connector that would then go under the screw easily? I know you are adding a connection, and maybe that's totally against code, but it might make the job easier. A box of the insulated base connectors is fairly cheap. I have that type of connector in many of the instruments I work on carrying pretty heavy amps in some cases.
Chuck
kenstrac
Platinum Member, RIP
If it was stranded wire yes I never put a solid wire in a Sta-kon.
