slowrev
Elite Member
Yes mike.
If a dealer doesn't know and is mostly blow, his customers will go.
Ben
If a dealer doesn't know and is mostly blow, his customers will go.
Ben
Pay for work not done?
- Thread starter Doc_Bob
- Start date
- Views: 12887
Richard
Elite Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 4,981
- Location
- Knoxville, TN
- Tractor
- International 1066 Full sized JCB Loader/Backhoe and a John Deere 430 to mow with
I'm curious...
Though I think you acted fine given the facts, something strikes me as odd. This dealer was going to charge you $75 to fix the PS, AND to move the exhaust stacks?
Perhaps the bill would have been $475 total and the $75 was for the transfer of the exhaust stack? (meaning, he only charged you for the work they did)
The numbers just seem out of whack to me. none the less, I'm all for 'getting their attention' and there is certainly no way better to do that than financially.
Though I think you acted fine given the facts, something strikes me as odd. This dealer was going to charge you $75 to fix the PS, AND to move the exhaust stacks?
Perhaps the bill would have been $475 total and the $75 was for the transfer of the exhaust stack? (meaning, he only charged you for the work they did)
The numbers just seem out of whack to me. none the less, I'm all for 'getting their attention' and there is certainly no way better to do that than financially.
cast_and_blast
Platinum Member
hockeyhead said:
I stand by my statement. I think it's always better to talk with folks first and try to work it out. If that doesn't work then you have the "hammer" of stopping payment as a backup. In the case of a personal check you need to move quickly, with a Credit Card you have some time.
Doc Bob has now clarified that he did call the dealer first and was unable to work things out. He then called the credit card company and stopped payment. That makes sense - I would have done the same thing.
Good Luck!
Scott
slowrev
Elite Member
Richard said:I'm curious...
Though I think you acted fine given the facts, something strikes me as odd. This dealer was going to charge you $75 to fix the PS, AND to move the exhaust stacks?
Perhaps the bill would have been $475 total and the $75 was for the transfer of the exhaust stack? (meaning, he only charged you for the work they did)
The numbers just seem out of whack to me. none the less, I'm all for 'getting their attention' and there is certainly no way better to do that than financially.
I don't believe the $75 for the exhaust swap was in dispute , but the other charges for fixing the other issue that was not worked on. You cannot stop part of a CC payout, all or nothing.
Richard
Elite Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 4,981
- Location
- Knoxville, TN
- Tractor
- International 1066 Full sized JCB Loader/Backhoe and a John Deere 430 to mow with
I only noticed a reference to a $75 charge. I must of missed the other comments about the rest of the charges.
sandman2234
Super Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2005
- Messages
- 6,040
- Location
- Jacksonville, Florida
- Tractor
- JD2555 and a few Allis Chalmers and now one Kubota
I just wonder what recourse I would have if I used a debit card, with a visa logo? Does that allow me the same option, or only if I specify "credit card"?
I would like to keep that option open, in case it ever happens to me.
David from jax
I would like to keep that option open, in case it ever happens to me.
David from jax
RobJ
Elite Member
CurlyDave said:
Are you sort of kidding here? You really think a dealer would pay that? Say you buy a new baler(or a used tractor from the dealer) and you already have hay on the ground, it breaks, in time you lose some hay. Is he supposed to pay for the hay? Manufactor supposed to pay? Rub of the green. At best the dealer might give you a break on something later on.
I think this is a simple case, no work no pay. Talked with the dealer before canceling, the only corse of action was to cancel. Personally I would never cancel without talking first. They might just not know? But the Texas/WI thing does make it a bit difficult. Doc did the right thing.
But I REALLY want to know the other rest of the story Doc....why did you buy a tractor in Texas and ship to WI. And it sounds like a used tractor? Ebay? Just a super deal?
Good Luck,
Rob
CurlyDave
Elite Member
Are you sort of kidding here?
No.
You really think a dealer would pay that?
Not willingly.
Say you buy a new baler(or a used tractor from the dealer) and you already have hay on the ground, it breaks, in time you lose some hay. Is he supposed to pay for the hay?
You are postulating a different situation. In good faith the dealer sold you something with a hidden defect he did not know about. OTOH, if you can prove that he knew the machine was defective and he hid the defect when he sold it to you, then he would be liable for the hay, and a whole lot more. The element of fraud creates a situation where the guilty party is liable for any consequential damages, no matter what his sales invoice or contract with you says.
I believe that even if it was an honest mistake to start with, when the dealer was told that the work wasn't done, and still wanted the original poster to pay for it, he started moving into the fraud range. I am not a lawyer, but I am not completely ignorant of legal matters either. If I had this problem I would take the tractor to a different dealer and get a diagnosis. If he gets written, outside confirmation the work was not done, or was not properly done, the OP is going to be on a very solid footing.
As a practical matter, collecting for consequential damages might take more legal effort that it is worth, but if the OP makes the dealer aware that he has committed a fraud, the dealer may well think carefully about his next move. He does not want to get into legal trouble, and if the credit card company can be convinced that the dealer has knowingly committed fraud, the credit card company can, and will, cancel his merchant VISA account. If he can not take credit cards, his business will fall off substantially. They probably will not do it for one isolated complaint, but if there are several, the dealer will be on very shaky ground.
Let me give you an example of a similar situation that happened to me about 15 years ago:
The front tires on my care were wearing unevenly and a local tire shop had a newspaper ad for an alignment, which stated "factory trained technicians".
I took my car in and bought four new tires and then had the wheels aligned. I watched the kid run the tire alignment machine and he could not even get past the startup screen for the computer. They told me that my alignment needed no adjustment, despite the clearly uneven wear on the old tires, and gave me paperwork which indicated that.
I went back the next day, with a copy of the ad, and spoke to the manager. I asked to see the training completion certificate for the mechanic who had aligned my car. After listening to me, the manager admitted that the mechanic had not been trained, and that he had not really made any alignment ajustments, even though they had charged me for them.
I pointed out that he had fraudulently charged me for an alignment, and had falsely advertised training that the mechanic did not have.
The manager called in another mechanic from another shop who re-did the alignment properly, gave me the alignment free, and refunded the price of two of the four tires. No, he didn't want to do it, but when I explained that his shop had knowingly committed fraud and that I had written proof of it, and would complain to both the law and the credit card company, he became very willing to work out a compromise.
No, I don't do this very often, but I feel strongly that if a business commits an act which is clearly illegal, they should pay a penalty for it. This is the only way they will ever learn to treat customers fairly. Since I have owned retail operations in the past, I knew his markup on tires was well over 50%. He didn't lose any money on the deal, he just didn't make any either.
No.
You really think a dealer would pay that?
Not willingly.
Say you buy a new baler(or a used tractor from the dealer) and you already have hay on the ground, it breaks, in time you lose some hay. Is he supposed to pay for the hay?
You are postulating a different situation. In good faith the dealer sold you something with a hidden defect he did not know about. OTOH, if you can prove that he knew the machine was defective and he hid the defect when he sold it to you, then he would be liable for the hay, and a whole lot more. The element of fraud creates a situation where the guilty party is liable for any consequential damages, no matter what his sales invoice or contract with you says.
I believe that even if it was an honest mistake to start with, when the dealer was told that the work wasn't done, and still wanted the original poster to pay for it, he started moving into the fraud range. I am not a lawyer, but I am not completely ignorant of legal matters either. If I had this problem I would take the tractor to a different dealer and get a diagnosis. If he gets written, outside confirmation the work was not done, or was not properly done, the OP is going to be on a very solid footing.
As a practical matter, collecting for consequential damages might take more legal effort that it is worth, but if the OP makes the dealer aware that he has committed a fraud, the dealer may well think carefully about his next move. He does not want to get into legal trouble, and if the credit card company can be convinced that the dealer has knowingly committed fraud, the credit card company can, and will, cancel his merchant VISA account. If he can not take credit cards, his business will fall off substantially. They probably will not do it for one isolated complaint, but if there are several, the dealer will be on very shaky ground.
Let me give you an example of a similar situation that happened to me about 15 years ago:
The front tires on my care were wearing unevenly and a local tire shop had a newspaper ad for an alignment, which stated "factory trained technicians".
I took my car in and bought four new tires and then had the wheels aligned. I watched the kid run the tire alignment machine and he could not even get past the startup screen for the computer. They told me that my alignment needed no adjustment, despite the clearly uneven wear on the old tires, and gave me paperwork which indicated that.
I went back the next day, with a copy of the ad, and spoke to the manager. I asked to see the training completion certificate for the mechanic who had aligned my car. After listening to me, the manager admitted that the mechanic had not been trained, and that he had not really made any alignment ajustments, even though they had charged me for them.
I pointed out that he had fraudulently charged me for an alignment, and had falsely advertised training that the mechanic did not have.
The manager called in another mechanic from another shop who re-did the alignment properly, gave me the alignment free, and refunded the price of two of the four tires. No, he didn't want to do it, but when I explained that his shop had knowingly committed fraud and that I had written proof of it, and would complain to both the law and the credit card company, he became very willing to work out a compromise.
No, I don't do this very often, but I feel strongly that if a business commits an act which is clearly illegal, they should pay a penalty for it. This is the only way they will ever learn to treat customers fairly. Since I have owned retail operations in the past, I knew his markup on tires was well over 50%. He didn't lose any money on the deal, he just didn't make any either.
Last edited:
RobJ said:
RobJ said:
Great deal on a used tractor purchased in Texas. Spoke with the seller (many times) who freely disclosed that PS was not working correctly along with error codes, etc.. We both agreed to take it to a NH dealer who happened to be the dealer that originally sold the tractor. I called dealer and said, the PS does not work correctly, gave the dealer a list of error codes and symptoms, and dealer said, "no problem, we can fix it".
I did not pay the seller (a private party) for the tractor until NH dealer had confirmed error codes and once again said he could fix it. Fine. I got a great deal on a tractor that was exactly as described that was going to have the PS fixed by the original selling dealer. I thought, it can't get any better than this! Boy, was I surprised!
Tractor shipped to WI from TX ( I used Bestway Trucking) when it arrived, I figured out the PS was not working correctly. The NH dealer never fixed it.
The tractor has proven to be a great deal. Runs well, great power, it is everything I was told it was and more. The only problem I have had so far is the NH dealer not fixing the PS! This was the last thing I expected to go wrong. Most folks would have guessed some undisclosed problem by the seller biting me in the "rear". That never happened.
I have no regrets. I would do it all again, but make sure it was taken to an AG tractor dealer.
Bob
slowrev said:
You are correct. Bill was 1266 dollars including 75 dollars for the swapping of the exhaust to horizontal. But, CCC won't cancel part of a bill, it is as you say, all or nothing.
had the dealer had a mechanic who knew what he was doing and a service manager who actually tested the repair work for completeness, then all would have been fine. But I believe the service manager may not have had any more knowledge of the PS than the mechanic. Case of the blind leading the blind.
Bob
