Buying Advice Pls advise on 4n1, road grading, tires, etc.

[MedTex]

Man you are so right about it being more complex to buy a tractor. I keep going back and forth! Well I checked out the used 4520 today -- very clean -- and agreed to terms with the dealer!! Excited to get a deal and some extra horse power to boot:

Year: October, 2006
Hours: 180
Extras, etc: 400X loader with standard bucket, Imatch, 3rd rear remote, canopy, air cushion seat, Power Reverser, R4s

Price for above: $23,500

I'm adding an MX6 and a 6 foot boxblade.

With the money savings and recommendations from Redbug and others I am now leaning towards:

WR Long electric hydraulic (rocker switch) kit (dealer quoted me about $600)
Millonzi LD48 (still unsure about this... is it too light for this tractor?)
Aldomi Skidsteer Adapter (price is right, but is it reputable?)

WR Long's website states this about its valve kit:
"These valve kits are designed to work off the power beyond port of your loader valve to operate a hydraulic cylinder like what is on a 4N1 bucket or grapple. These kits are not sized to operate a hydraulically powered motor such as an auger or broom. "

Does the WR Long kit limit me with regards to other skidsteer attachments per statement above? And do I need to have the power beyond installed in order to hook-up the kit? The tractor currently does not have this option.

Thanks again for all your help!

 

[IslandTractor]

Hi MedTex. Nice setup you are contemplating. I have both a LD48 grapple from Millonzi and a 4n1 from WRLong so my experience may be relevant for you. I originally used the grapple with a rear remote on my previous tractor and I now have a WRLong diverter valve.

Based on your first post it sounds like you don't really have that much brush clearing to do. The reason I bring that up is that the grapple would be mostly useful for that purpose. Don't think I don't like my grapple, it is my all time favorite implement, but that is partly because I do a lot of brush clearing. It is a great bang for the buck attachment. Moving beyond the question of whether you need a grapple, I would not be concerned about matching up the LD48 and the CX400. My Kioti loader has a lift capacity of 2700lbs at the pivot pins. I can lift the rear of the tractor off the ground when grappling stumps/roots and the grapple has no trouble with that. My LD48 is one of the early ones and is less heavily built than current models too. I personally believe most tractor owners are buying grapples that are too large and heavy and expensive. I understand that people naturally think of getting a grapple with the same width as their primary bucket but believe that is false reasoning. If you are cleaning up construction debris it makes sense to have a very wide grapple but when you are digging out brush or lifting logs you really want to focus the power in a smaller area and you want to conserve lift capacity by having a light grapple. The LD48, all 285 mighty pounds of it, can be had for about $850 plus shipping which is an incredible deal compared to just about any of the competition.

I have experience with both rear remotes and diverter valves but have not used an electric over hydraulic valve. I am surprised to see your dealer quoted you $600 for electric over hydraulic because that is a pretty decent price for a diverter valve installed and electric over hydraulic is usually a few hundred bucks extra. If I were in your shoes, I would start using the rear remotes to control the grapple/4n1. Although people worry that they will need to move their hand and that you cannot practically do open/close and dump/curl at the same time, my experience suggests you really rarely ever really want to do that. With brush clearing you drive into a bush or stump, you grapple it tight, and then you curl to rip it out. There is only rarely a time when you might want to curl/close at the same time. I have a diverter valve on the DK and I like it but it is not in my opinion a major advantage over using a rear remote. Taking your hand off the FEL joystick to reach for the rear remote controller is as natural as taking your hand off the steering wheel of your car to shift a 4 speed manual transmission. It rapidly becomes an automatic motion. In the beginning you will "look" your hand to the remote controller but after a few hours it becomes pretty natural to do it without looking. I actually have had more trouble with the diverter valve than the rear remote....the issue is that with the diverter valve you operate the open/close by hitting the joystick button while moving the joystick into either curl or dump position. I find that I often forget to let the joystick return to neutral before I let go of the button and that means that the bucket/grapple will inadvertently curl/dump when I had not intended to do that. Electric over hydraulic I think would be significantly better than a diverter valve but the cost compared to using rear remotes is pretty significant (the cost of a grapple for example). Were I in your position and the dealer really was willing to install an electric over hydraulic valve for $600, frankly I'd do it. Otherwise I'd use the rear remote and see how I liked it and got used to it before investing money in either a diverter valve or EOH. The only things you need to get started with rear hydraulics are a couple sets of quick connects and a couple 20 foot (approx) lengths of 1/4 inch hose. If you change your mind and add a diverter you can reuse the QCs and the hose so there is very little waste if you do change your mind.

I also recently acquired a used 4n1 (WRLong) bucket. I've only used it for about 10 hours compared to about 100 hrs with my grapple so consider these comments preliminary. The first point I do feel very confident in stating strongly: a 4n1 is no way a substitute for a grapple. It is very limited in ability to pick up brush or logs. I can pick up exactly one branch or small tree or log with the 4n1. I can pick up huge grapple fulls of various materials with the grapple so there is really no comparison in ability to quickly and efficiently move brush or logs. The other point is that with a grapple you can accurately place the tines under exactly what you want to and then simply clamp down to hold it in place. With the 4n1 you need to line up what you want to lift and make sure you get it centered on the pinch point or there is an even chance that when you clamp on it you won't really have it secured and you'd drop it. I found it frustrating to move one 4 inch tree at a time when I was used to moving half a dozen at a time wiht the grapple. I do really like the "bull dozing" blade aspect of the 4n1. That is a very useful tool and to me makes the 4n1 worthwhile. Obviously the Swiss Army knife aspect of the 4n1 is worth mentioning but as in most tools, multifunction tools don't do things nearly as well as dedicated tools. For extracting and moving brush or small trees I would go with the grapple definitely. However I did find the 4n1 superior when I team it up with my BH to dig stumps. The reason is that I can dig the stump out then push it aside and fill in the hole pretty effectively with the 4n1 dozer blade (very tough to do with a grapple).

Final point: Skid Steer attachments that require high flow (snow blower, hydraulic mowers etc) are not generally usable on a tractor because the hydraulic flow is just not there. If you really wanted to use skid steer attachments other than static (forks etc) or open/close devices, you should do the math to see if you have adequate flow. I'd guess not.

 

[Redbug]

Just wondering, with a question...since I don't have a Deere...doesn't Deere have it's own Skidsteer adaptor for that tractor? I am not sure about the capacity on the aftermarket, and a Deere may be a dollar or two more...but you know for sure what you are getting and it's "Greene".

Also,
WR Long's website states this about its valve kit:
"These valve kits are designed to work off the power beyond port of your loader valve to operate a hydraulic cylinder like what is on a 4N1 bucket or grapple. These kits are not sized to operate a hydraulically powered motor such as an auger or broom. "

About your WR Long valve question, (IslandTractor is right)...If you plan to get a piece of equipment that requires more hydraulics or flow, (backhoe, etc.), your tractor has other ports to tap into, (and that does not include your extra rear remotes, also). There are also hyd pumps that hook up to your PTO that can boost flow and capacity for those pieces of equipment that require a lot of extra flow. The WR Long valve kit is just the ticket for what you want to do. Who knows...later on you may want a 4in1 bucket or some other device, and will already be rigged for it, too.

Also, TurkeyMan I believe has a tractor simuliar to what you are getting, and can help steer you, too.
That sounds like a great deal on the tractor. Ahhhhh, that almost new tractor smell !!!!

 

[MedTex]

Island, many thanks for the in depth information -- very helpful. And thanks to both you and Redbug for setting me straight regarding the skidsteer attachments.

Island, since my original post and after having viewed several of the pictures that you have uploaded (of the LD48 in action), I have come to realize that indeed I will have many more needs/uses for the grapple than previously thought. In our area, the juniper tree is an invasive evergreen that forms "cedar brakes" which we are constantly battling. Also, the creek is prone to the flash floods which create debris piles and log jams. And finally, we have big boulders -- some of which are half buried -- that could be removed, making the land more usable.

First thing tomorrow I plan to:
*Order the Millonzi LD48 (skid steer QA)
*Call dealer and verify $600 for WR Long kit (I have a suspicion that I got bad information -- either he was referring to their diverter kit or he was giving WR Long's price -- not including dealer mark-up and install costs)
*Order a skidsteer adapter

If the total costs for the WR Long kit is substantially over $600, I will opt to run the grapple off the rear remote as Island suggested. It makes sense to at least try it out this way first.

I hope to get the tractor home in next couple of days... after which I'll post some pics... and yes it did have a nice "almost" new tractor smell to it... new to me anyway!

Thanks.

 

[LBrown59]

Forget the R4's if you don't need them for mowing a lawn. R1's will give you far better traction over R4's in any situation.

All you need to run the 4 in 1 bucket is the 3rd rear valve and the front hydralic kit since you don't want to go with the expense of an electric diverter.

The 4 in 1 will do the road grading job and if you want an implement to touch it up, I'd go with a landscape rake over a box blade.

Sounds like you will have a nice set up.
Sincerely, Dirt

How did you come out on the tractor accident?

 

[IslandTractor]

First thing tomorrow I plan to:
*Order the Millonzi LD48 (skid steer QA)
*Call dealer and verify $600 for WR Long kit (I have a suspicion that I got bad information -- either he was referring to their diverter kit or he was giving WR Long's price -- not including dealer mark-up and install costs)
*Order a skidsteer adapter

Nice set up.

 

[kennyd]

I am going to suggest you keep the JD QA system and save your money. It is a very nice setup that is quick, easy and effective.
There are very few SS attachments that will work on your tractor due to the available hydraulic flow. You basically have three choices: Bucket, Grapple, and Forks-all of which are readily available with the JD style QA system.

 

[MedTex]

Kennyd,

I've gone back and forth on the skidsteer QA decision (I've never been so indecisive in my life as with buying my first tractor!!) The JD dealer told me that JD and "all tractor brands" are soon going to be changing their loader QA system, going to a new universal system (not skidsteer though). So all makes would have the same universal system. I'm not sure if this is true, but if it is, that could make the current JD QA system incompatible with future system. Maybe they would have a conversion adapter for it... or maybe the guy didn't know what he was talking about?

The skidsteer adapter I'm looking at is the Aldomi QA-8295

I like the fact that it will universally connect to most loaders and it costs about $450 or so.

But your point about skidsteer not giving me much advantage is well taken especially after I've learned that all those cool skidsteer attachments will not work on a tractor anyway due to lack of hydraulic power.

Thanks.

 

[IslandTractor]

I am going to suggest you keep the JD QA system and save your money. It is a very nice setup that is quick, easy and effective.
There are very few SS attachments that will work on your tractor due to the available hydraulic flow. You basically have three choices: Bucket, Grapple, and Forks-all of which are readily available with the JD style QA system.

If MedTex already has the JD system I am inclined to agree. It would be cheaper just to stay with JD QA and there is no functional difference or advantage for the universal unless you want to rent things like forks. I agree that hydraulic powered front end equipment is generally not possible with a tractor (post hole digger and other low powered motors excepted) and generally people don't rent the non powered attachments like forks so there is not much of an argument in its favor.

In my case, I bought a used JD QA mount 4N1 bucket and it was not a problem to convert it to universal. Just requires cutting off the top hooks and welding on a universal plate so it is not a big deal but it does cost $100 for the universal receiver plate and maybe another $100 for welding unless you do it yourself. You'd need to do that for the standard bucket if you go to universal. I would guess the Millonzi grapple would only cost $50 or so more in the JD QA mount and that is less than it would cost to adapt the standard bucket to universal.

If there really is a new standard coming down the pike (I have a little trouble believing anyone will be successful trying to move away from the existing Bobcat inspired "universal" QA), then you could just convert everything at that time.

 

[MedTex]

The JD system on this loader has just two pins and looks real easy to use. Sounds like the way to go... more savings... works for me! Thanks!

Island, I just got off the phone with Jim at Millonzi. He recommended the LD60 for my 53HP tractor... he thought I might be able to lift something too heavy for the LD48. He did not strongly recommend the LD60 over the LD48 -- he said the 48 would be fine if I am careful not to over do it. I had already mentioned tractorbynet to get a discount... he asked if "Island Tractor" was advising me (they should pay you a commission ). He has seen your uploaded pictures.

Given that the current LD48 is even beefier that your older version (it now weighs about 325 lbs.... LD60 weighs 425 lbs with two arms) I am still inclined to go with it over the LD60 which costs about $600 more. Both are made with same material and metal thickness, etc. Any final thoughts?

Thanks.