Plumbing Electrons vs Propane...where to put the generator?

[deltatango]

Greetings all,
We are planning the location of our standby generator and am interested in input from the community on where to locate it.
My tank is on the opposite side of the house (~70ft through conditioned crawlspace) from my electrical service entrance.
Do I put the generator next to the propane for a less expensive propane install, but a 6AWG power run to my panel? Or close to the panel, but longer propane?
I am comfortable doing electrical work, but not the propane work. So, the propane will will have to be contracted out.
Thanks for your input!

 

[CMV]

All the ones I can recall seeing are very close to the electrical panel. But those have all been NG and it's usually entering near there too I'd bet. It seems like main panel, transfer switch, backup generator - kind of makes sense for those to all be right there together if for nothing else maintenance down the road.

I'd be thinking about what rooms are on other side of wall from generator? I'd want it along garage or kitchen, or as far away from bedrooms if there wasn't some other good reason to have it elsewhere. I only say that because our AC compressor is literally 3' from my headboard in our master bedroom and I hate hearing that thing cycle (but would hate a 90ｰ bedroom even more I guess.....). But I'm sure that's cycling much more frequently than a generator would anyway.

Are there any code requirements that make the choice for you? Like X' from doors? Would think there are some considerations there - at least in as much as where it can't go & pass inspection.....

From pure aesthetics, as close to AC compressor or heat pump or fireplace dog box might make sense too - keep all the eyesores together so at least 3 clean sides of the house? If there has to be something else looking "out of place" along one of the exterior walls anyway, maybe cluster that all together if it works there?

 

[cdaigle430]

Greetings all,
We are planning the location of our standby generator and am interested in input from the community on where to locate it.
My tank is on the opposite side of the house (~70ft through conditioned crawlspace) from my electrical service entrance.
Do I put the generator next to the propane for a less expensive propane install, but a 6AWG power run to my panel? Or close to the panel, but longer propane?
I am comfortable doing electrical work, but not the propane work. So, the propane will will have to be contracted out.
Thanks for your input!

I dont think it matters as long as the generator is away from falling snow and ice that may come off the roof. I have my natural gas 16kw Generac at the corner of my house about 18 inches from the house wall. The electrical is run under ground to the opposite side of the house and goes into an auto switch.
Propane you may want to get some estimates because that can be the most expensive part...mine was 500 dollars just to run it 24 feet-above ground by a licensed plumber.

 

[CobyRupert]

Are there any code requirements that make the choice for you? Like X' from doors? Would think there are some considerations there - at least in as much as where it can't go & pass inspection.....

Codes? : Yes. No. Maybe. Codes are usually a local requirement as adopted by the jurisdiction you live under. Typically a municipality adopts a recognized "Standard" by a recognized organization. For example, your building code my require all electrical work conform to the National Electric Code (NEC) 2017. Or maybe it only needs to be NEC 2014 and they haven't adopted 2017 yet.

There is a nationally recognized "standard" from National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA) for stationary combustion engines (NFPA 37) that says engines have to be at least 5 ft from openings in walls (doors, windows, etc...) and from combustible walls. A clearance of less than 5 ft to wall is allowed where all portions of structures have a 1 hr fire resistance rating, but 5 ft is still required from openings.

Regardless of where the generator is, you want the transfer switch near the main panel because you have to run utility or panel power to the transfer switch and back from the switch to the panel or branch circuits.

Some things to think about regarding plumbing electrons or gas:
The electrons can only leak from the plumbing if the generator is running. The Gas is always in the pipe.
If the electrons leak, the circuit breaker at the generator should quickly stop the leak.
If Gas leaks from pipe, you, or your survivors, find out about it when you flip the light switch.
I have a bias.
:2cents:

 

[Jchonline]

Codes? : Yes. No. Maybe. Codes are usually a local requirement as adopted by the jurisdiction you live under. Typically a municipality adopts a recognized "Standard" by a recognized organization. For example, your building code my require all electrical work conform to the National Electric Code (NEC) 2017. Or maybe it only needs to be NEC 2014 and they haven't adopted 2017 yet.

There is a nationally recognized "standard" from National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA) for stationary combustion engines (NFPA 37) that says engines have to be at least 5 ft from openings in walls (doors, windows, etc...) and from combustible walls. A clearance of less than 5 ft to wall is allowed where all portions of structures have a 1 hr fire resistance rating, but 5 ft is still required from openings.

Regardless of where the generator is, you want the transfer switch near the main panel because you have to run utility or panel power to the transfer switch and back from the switch to the panel or branch circuits.

Some things to think about regarding plumbing electrons or gas:
The electrons can only leak from the plumbing if the generator is running. The Gas is always in the pipe.
If the electrons leak, the circuit breaker at the generator should quickly stop the leak.
If Gas leaks from pipe, you, or your survivors, find out about it when you flip the light switch.
I have a bias.
:2cents:

I would not run another gas line under my house due to this. I would run electrical. Get the right size wire and the loss will be minimal.

 

[teejk]

I'd go with closer to the electrical panel because of line-loss (70 feet is a lot). Propane piping is relatively cheap...a qualified plumber or "gas rat" can tee off your existing feed with black-pipe and then out to the generator with copper and brass. Of course much depends on where you least want the noise. Next to your bedroom would be a no.

 

[Fuddy1952]

Our garage is 200ft or so from house, propane and electric is there. Do you have a detached garage like that?
Then my neighbor just recently had a (Generac I think) generator installed. It's very close to his electric panel box and they buried a line and installed a 500 gallon tank behind a shed about 100ft away. He now has two propane tanks, the other one is on other side of house for gas fireplace logs and a gas stove.

 

[s219]

It's easy to upsize wire to offset voltage drop, so distance should not be an issue for electrical, within reason. My generator is about 30' from our house in a separate shed.

 

[Zerk]

Voltage drop is something to consider. Protecting that length of wire is another. Would want fuses or breaker at generator. Can up size wire. Not sure how far you can push propane, and if need upsize. My tank is around 70 feet from boiler. They ran black iron through house.

I worked as contractor installing gas and electric. Most people should not install electric. Especially if you are more concerned about gas.

 

[grsthegreat]

Greetings all,
We are planning the location of our standby generator and am interested in input from the community on where to locate it.
My tank is on the opposite side of the house (~70ft through conditioned crawlspace) from my electrical service entrance.
Do I put the generator next to the propane for a less expensive propane install, but a 6AWG power run to my panel? Or close to the panel, but longer propane?
I am comfortable doing electrical work, but not the propane work. So, the propane will will have to be contracted out.
Thanks for your input!

its always best to keep gen close to gas source. The further you place it, the larger the pipe will need to be for gas. It will aldo need go be black pipe if under house. Always cheaper to run electrical.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

The best place to put a generator is out of earshot. In the peace of falling snow, they are obnoxious.

 

[Zerk]

The best place to put a generator is out of earshot. In the peace of falling snow, they are obnoxious.

I was thinking that to some degree. But I am assuming this is for emergency. Though I have been at camps who run off generators. They put in a shed to protect and muffle it.

Also keep in mind, in prolonged outage you might want this somewhere you can keep an eye on it. Rather than worrying about your poetic vision. I like snow too. But I get enough of it, I don't worry about the painting.

 

[deltatango]

Thanks for the input everyone. Many concerns raised I had not considered. Generator will only be used for emergency, so noise isn't a decision maker for me. I'm leaning towards locating close to the propane tank. This will actually help me on two fronts propane proximity and condensing unit proximity. The CU is my largest backup load, so I'll save the line loss at least for that main load by being adjacent to it. I just need to work out a code approved way to feed that directly under standby power. I don't plan to use the auto transfer switch on the house. It isn't worth the permitting and install cost to me. The generator is already electric start...auto changeover would make me feel spoiled.

 

[CMV]

Automatic or not, you still need a transfer switch correct?

 

[grsthegreat]

Not sure what your referrint to when you say Cu. No matter what youll need some sort of transfer switch, eithr manual or automatic. Something has to swap loads

 

[teejk]

Not sure what your referrint to when you say Cu. No matter what youll need some sort of transfer switch, eithr manual or automatic. Something has to swap loads

CU is "condensing unit". Sounds like he wants to power that directly from the generator if needed which I guess will work if he remembers to first disconnect it from the house panel (otherwise kiss that baby goodbye if the power comes back on). As for the house I guess he plans to do the switch-over manually if needed. I hope he and anybody in the house knows how to do that.

 

[deltatango]

Yes guys. I currently have a permitted manual disconnect. It mechanically interlocks so you cannot connect the generator while mains are connected. I don't know of a way to interlock a single load under code. Maybe I'll just install a hard start kit.

 

[Zerk]

Automatic or not, you still need a transfer switch correct?

Legally you need a transfer switch so you can't backfeed the utility or come in out of phase. The ones I have worked with have one source on the top, other on the bottom. Off in the middle. There are some that ratchet, but more common will to just raise and lower.

We were just discussing this today. Some people want auto so stays on if they are away from home or the sump pump. There is a value in that. Though I am also concerned about rationing my gas or propane.

Its not a matter of feeling spoiled. Need to decide what works for your case. Are you worried about house flooding or freezing? I am, but will probably still go manual.

I have been looking into home temp monitors, and humidity. This technology has gotten incredible cheap. I got lights at my home and camp, I can turn on and off with my phone. $20 a single pole light. Still deciding on which wifi monitor to use for temp. I don't want to use a t-stat, cause I am paranoid about some hacker or defect driving my heat up or down. Not hacking me personnally but just the company. But lots of people have do have wifi t-stats. If so you will no if heat goes out and have to come home. Lose signal and will also know power is out.



If I had natural gas, I might lean towards auto, if you got better unit that would respond to loads, and not use a lot of gas. But I have propane, and want to conserve for a prolonged outage.


Also some women might not be able to handle pushing the button to start it, as funny as that sounds.

 

[Zerk]

Y I don't know of a way to interlock a single load under code. it.

I think most people probably backfeed the panel and just turn off breakers they don't want using power.

I havn't done it, but off top of my head I can't think of why you can't do a transfer switch between you panel and sub panel. This would prevent having to get utility involved to install the transfer switch.

Myself I don't have any critical loads on my sub panel. By doing this you would have critical loads in your sub.



One concern, may be if you have anything that is not up to code. Inspector may force you update.

 

[grsthegreat]

Just cause you power up condenser unit...how do you power the air handler indoors. Without the air handler, whats the use. Over thinking this