Plumbing Rant

[N80]

I HATE plumbing. And apparently plumbing hates me too. I take care of the basic plumbing problems in my 30 year old suburban home and I even did all of the plumbing in the log cabin I built (one bath, one kitchen I used PEX tubing and love it!)) including the DWV system. Well, for the last two years we've had a plastic wash sink as the kitchen sink and I just got through putting in new cabinets and a counter top that I made myself. Then it came to install the new sink. Basic, inexpensive stainless sink with two basins and simple faucet. What a nightmare.

First, I plan everything out. Start hooking everything up in logical order. Got the supply side all hooked up and now its time to hook the sink to the counter top. OMG, what demon in hades invented those little clamps for holding the sink in place? It took over an hour to get them in place and tightended down. There is no room to work under there!. I taught my son a few words he'd never heard before.

Then, after I got it all hooked up everything finally worked fine. Hot, cold, drained well. A few minutes later....3 leaks. Tightended the hot supply line up, one leak down. Tightended the compression fitting to the drain tailpiece, two leaks down. The third leak? Well, I used the flexible supply lines and the one for the cold side is leaking at the swivel point! A defect. This means I have to remove it and put in a new one. But instead of being able to do it with everything pulled apart and easy to get to, I'll have to do it from underneath because I sure as heck aint pulling that sink out again. That will be its own little nightmare and I suspect my son my learn a few more special words. Of course there is no hardware near by so it will be next week before i get to it.

There has got to be a better way. Plumbing seems firmly fixed in the dark ages! (Outside of that PEX tubing. It was easy and flawless).

Sorry for the rant. Just had to share. I didn't get much sympathy at home.

 

[EddieWalker]

George,

I found that those little clamps to hold the sink in place are almost useless. I put down a bead of clear silicone around the lip first. Then I use a long extension on a socket to tighten them down. Once the silicone startes to ooze, I stop tightening them.

The next day when the silicone is dry, I cut off the excess and have a solid sink.

I like to put the water supply lines on the faucet first, then slide all of it into the holes. The little locking nuts can be a pain, but get tight eventually.

The rest is pretty easy, just uncomfortable. Sorry your having problems but it's one of those things that do get easier the more you do it. Never fun, but that's what saving money doing it yourself is for. hahahha

Eddie

 

[wilkesland]

George

I feel your pain.......

Plumbing is my least favorite task, and is almost certainly guarateed to raise my blood pressure by 20 points. I'd rather paint than do plumbing and I hate painting. But after getting a plumber to come out a couple of years ago to do a simple hookup of a water heater, I got properly calibrated on the cost of plumber's, so I do it and get aggravated.

Barry

 

[CurlyDave]

One of the things I did when I installed my sink was to install a cheap porcelain light fixture, the kind with the pull chain, in the cabinet under the sink. I just put a cord on it and plugged it into one of the diswasher outlets.

You would be amazed at how much easier it is working under there with the right amount of light.

Plus, now my wife uses the light to see what we have stored in there.

 

[randy41]

i find doing drainage plumbing is a challenge because of the size of the pipes and the limited space you sometimes have to work with. but as others have said this is the price you pay for not paying someone else to do it. i think in all projects being patient and not getting in a rush makes for a happy ending.

 

[Tim_in_IA]

one thing I figured out is that with the supply hoses I would put them on too tight, damaging the rubber membrane inside. Now when I install them I put them on just over finger tight. Check for leaks, and if they need any adjustment just a little at a time. once they are too tight the hoses are ruined.

Also for some reason I always teflon taped these joints never thinking about how they were designed. I don't use any tape now, as the rubber is what keeps it from leaking. The tape just gets in the way. Same with compression joints.

 

[N80]

Eddie, I pretty much did it just the way you said, the problem was not having the right tool. I had a long socket extension to tighten the little clamps but the screw on the clamp was so long the socket couldn't tighten the nut all the way. My set of 'bullet' sockets (the long ones) did not have one that small. Having a long socket would have saved me a lot of grief. I tried cutting the screw off to shorten it but then it wouldn't open far enough to clamp the counter!

So, once again I'll blame it one my tools!

Putting the new hose back on is going to be a pain, but I've done it before. Looks like about a ten minute job. I think I'll allow an hour.

 

[kylawyer]

Now that I have found this vent, let me put in my 2 cents. I am building out the basement on our house. Yep, doing most all of it including plumbing the bath and a wet bar.

Here is the thing I hate and will never do again if I can help it, sweating copper pipes. Since the exisiting lines were all copper, I decided to go that way. Boy do I wish I had tried to learn to use PEX. i already knew how to work copper, and was not sure how to connect pex to copper.

Boy sweating is right, what a pain. Worst part is, I just finished the rough supply to the wet bar area and had a 90 degree fitting that was against a floor joist leak. So I had to redo it. Tried to get the fitting loose by heating it up with the torch, instead of cutting it out. Water was still in the line I guess and I could not get it loose. But I had heated up the pipe rally well. Bending around to see where to cut it, I would up putting my left forearm in contact with the pipe I had torched up and ooooouch. Nice five inch long third degree burn!

From now on I pay a guy to sweat pipes.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm gonna get on my soapbox on copper pipes here.

I make the bulk of my living repairing homes, and water leaks are right at the top of the list. I have never been in a house with copper lines that didn't have a leak someplace. They are very, very small leaks, but over 20 years or more, they create problems. The most common leaks are in the valves for the tub and shower, but I've found them behind sinks, in walls and in attics.

My personal theory is that if you do a hundred joints in a house, one will not be perfect. The guys who built these homes do this all day long and are about as good at it as anybody can be, and they still mess up. If they can't get it one hundred percent of the time, who can????

I know most do it yourselfers will take more time with there own homes and do a very good job, so this really doesn't apply to anybody here, it's just my opinion based on observations.

I like PVC. If it's gonna leak, it does so within a day or two. Not something that you won't notice for 20 years. It's cheap, simple and effective.

When I do an addition or remodel, I prefer to sweat on a threaded fitting to the existing copper lines and use PVC.

Eddie

 

[LarryD]

Well, I used the flexible supply lines and the one for the cold side is leaking at the swivel point! A defect. This means I have to remove it and put in a new one.

I just finished installing a dishwasher at the house and found the same problem with the supply line...WHERE IT CONNECTED UNDER THE DISHWASHER. Everything had to be disconnected, dishwasher pulled out, and go back to the store for a replacement.

I tried to do everthing I know about plumbing to prevent any issues, plumbers putty on all joints, tighten all fittings properly, then check again before installing. Sometimes no matter how thourough I try to be, Murphy comes around.

 

[Dusty]

I must be the exception, because I find sweating copper pipes easy. Been doing it the same way for over 50 years. Clean the copper well, flux, and use the right size tip for the size of the pipe that needs to be soldered. Poor quality solder will cause you problems, and the new "no lead" solders are more challenging, but not impossible to work with. Just like any other trade, some can do it well, and others can't do it at all. Nothing wrong with that, because not many of us can be experts in every trade. We should do those that we can do well, and leave the other trades to the people that know how to do them best. Dusty

 

[N80]

Dusty, you may be right. I did teflon tape them and I probably did overtighten....hoping to get it right the first time.

 

[KubotaSteve]

When I do an addition or remodel, I prefer to sweat on a threaded fitting to the existing copper lines and use PVC.

Eddie:

My dad told me this a long time ago. His house is 30 years old and is all copper, but anytime he makes a repair or a change, he buys these special compression fittings from the local plumbing store that goes from copper to pvc pipe. Lucky for me my entire house is done in pvc except for a couple of spots where copper was used to stiffen up things such as going up to shower head.

 

[N80]

kylawyer, PEX is great. I'm sure there must be some downside to it, or maybe something is going to crop up in a few years, but installing it is a dream. It bends around corners which means less joints, it is as resistant to ice bursting as anything out there and connections are easy. Cutting it is simple with a $7 tool. Splicing into it later is a snap.

I've sweated copper and it is a fairly straightforward process but in fact it does require a certain amount of skill....which I clearly do not have. With PEX you use a sort of crimp tool. The tools cost over $100 and most projects will need two sizes. But, HD rents them for cheap. Crimping the rings is virtually fool proof. (Yeah right, but I plumbed my 1000 sq ft cabin myself including tank, water heater, etc and there were NO leaks and none since and thats been at least two years. So, given that I could do it, I consider it idiot proof.) They make all sorts of transition peices to go between different types of pipes and fittings.

Eddie, I agree about the copper. So far we've had two major leaks in my home. The copper is probably 30 years old and our well water abrades the copper at joints. The copper actually eroded through. One leak wa minor, one was not but neither caused much damage because they were under the house and we caught them quickly. With our water the copper also staines all the sinks and toilets blue/green. I've replaced all the copper that doesn't require tearing out walls with PEX. I worry about the copper in the walls.

As far as paying someone. I do when I don't have the time to do a repair, but over the last few years the local guys have done pretty shoddy work and I end up re-doing things myself. Lately I have found a good plumber (who replaced all my copper) and he did excellent work.

One last thing about PEX. One of the coolest things I've seen is a manifold system (which may work with other things besides PEX) in which you run your main hot line to one central manifold and your main cold to another. Then you run individual small lines to each fixture! This way you can control flow to each individual fixture from a central manifold. If I ever build a new home, I'll do the manifold thing.

 

[kylawyer]

Eddie i agree that copper has its own set of problems. But like Dusty, I have a lot of expereince and am very proficient. You know how it is you do what you already know how to do. It does leak eventually, that's is how I built up so much experience. I have lived in two old houses that I renovated. I am talking 1920's homes. And man was there lots of copper plumbing to redo.

Yeah N80 If I was building a new home I'd definitely do PEX. Our house is new, it was a spec that we caught in the middle of building. It already had been done in copper. One of the new builds in our subdivision is all done in PEX. The manifold system is great. It's like an electrical circuit box for plumbing. You can shut down what you need to shut down.

I didn't try PEX because of the unfamiliarity, the fact I already had copper. Truth is it really does not take much in the way of tools for copper. Although I guess you could about buy the tools for what copper pipe costs now. 27 bucks for a ten foot section of 1/2 inch pipe. I have roughed in a good 70 feet all told. I don't know what PEX costs, but it has to be cheaper.

 

[Dusty]

If I were building new, I would use the PEX, but I would never use the PVC. The PVC will crack if it freezes, where the PEX will not. This isn't a problem where Eddie lives, but in the frigid Northeast, it is a definite factor. I recently did a new water heater change over, and used all copper for that, I thought about the PVC, but the plumbing supply house quickly talked me out of it. They recommended either copper or PEX, and offered me the tools for the PEX if I wanted to try it. I know the copper will outlast me in my home, so I just went with what I am most familiar with. I will let the next owner worry about the copper wearing out, but for me, it isn't an issue. Dusty

 

[kmdigital]

If you have the proper tools, it really isn't that bad. For example, get a basin wrench and installing and removing the supplies on the faucet after the sink is installed is a simple job, but it sure is hard without one.

Also, I know the flex supplies are quick and easy, but I sure don't like them. They tend to leak when they shouldn't, and since the seal is made with rubber it will eventually leak as the rubber deteriorates. I much prefer the PEX supplies with the cone ends molded right on them. They come in different lengths and two sizes, a smaller cone for all faucets and a larger cone for toilets. The other end is a compression fit into a 3/8" stop, and use the plastic ferrules that come with the supplies instead of the brass ferrules you would use with copper tubing. And they cost a good deal less then the flex supplies. I have never had one of these spring a leak, but it sure has happened more than once with the flex supplies.

Also, as a guy who has spent years as a plumbing and HVAC service tech, I DO NOT like PVC or CPVC water lines. Copper is ok, but way too expensive now adays, and hard to sweat in a repair situation because you have to get all the water out of the line first, but PEX is great.

The problem with any PVC pipe is that it is virtually impossible to make a threaded connection that doesn't eventually leak, unless you use the expensive brass/CPVC fittings that have the brass threaded portion molded right into the CPVC at the factory. And once you have a leak, it is hard to fix, because you have to cut everything apart and redo it, with even more joints because there is no way to repair a leak in the middle of the pipe. And the pipe will crack if you drop a hammer or something on it, but you won't know it until it is all installed and you turn the water on. And then you definitely know it!

 

[hilld]

I'm gonna get on my soapbox on copper pipes here.

I make the bulk of my living repairing homes, and water leaks are right at the top of the list. I have never been in a house with copper lines that didn't have a leak someplace. They are very, very small leaks, but over 20 years or more, they create problems. The most common leaks are in the valves for the tub and shower, but I've found them behind sinks, in walls and in attics.

My personal theory is that if you do a hundred joints in a house, one will not be perfect. The guys who built these homes do this all day long and are about as good at it as anybody can be, and they still mess up. If they can't get it one hundred percent of the time, who can????

I know most do it yourselfers will take more time with there own homes and do a very good job, so this really doesn't apply to anybody here, it's just my opinion based on observations.

I like PVC. If it's gonna leak, it does so within a day or two. Not something that you won't notice for 20 years. It's cheap, simple and effective.

When I do an addition or remodel, I prefer to sweat on a threaded fitting to the existing copper lines and use PVC.

Eddie

PVC is great, except there is a problem. Here in Oregon, it is NOT approved for hot water and I am assuming the same applies to other areas. You are forced to use CPVC which is total garbage. After a few (10 years) the stuff will get brittle and right now there are a lot of plumbers replacing defective CPVC with new plumbing. The house I just remodeled was an all copper house including all the drain lines (looking at the 3" copper toilet drain lines scared me - thinking of how much money that would cost today), the plumber used wirsbo (pex product) for all the plumbing and a few pieces of copper where exposed to sunlight such as in the garage.

Derek

 

[turnkey4099]

BASIN WRENCH - if you don't have one yet, get one for your toolbox. You _will_ need it eventually.

I'll take PVC (CPVC for hot water lines) over even PEX for new work.

PVC/CPVC is the simplest of all the systems to repair/change/add on. Give me a hacksaw, can of glue and my bucket of assorted fittings and the job is done in a few minutes. With PEX you pay through the nose for the crimp tool or make a trip somewhere to rent one. Not an option when most leaks occur (Murphy's law: 2 a.m. on a dark and stormy night).

Patching into a PVC/CPVC line or removing a leaking joint. cut it and put in the new fitting, there will be enough flex in the line to fit it in mosst cases. I have had to resort to four 45 deg el's on buried lines to cut into one though - again not a problem, a minute or two does it.

I have never had a problem with the threaded adaptors in CPVC/PVC once I learned that you ALWAYS use a male PVC adapter, never a female one.

PEX is the shining star when it comes to working in an old house where you have to poke lines through enclosed walls, etc.

Harry K

 

[Westonium]

I must be the exception, because I find sweating copper pipes easy. Been doing it the same way for over 50 years. Clean the copper well, flux, and use the right size tip for the size of the pipe that needs to be soldered. Poor quality solder will cause you problems, and the new "no lead" solders are more challenging, but not impossible to work with. Just like any other trade, some can do it well, and others can't do it at all. Nothing wrong with that, because not many of us can be experts in every trade. We should do those that we can do well, and leave the other trades to the people that know how to do them best. Dusty

I am in agreement with Dusty. I grew up with copper pipes and the only leak to develop after 28 years was degradation of the supply pipe buried directly in soil. Never one leak otherwise. My grandpa built his house on a radiant heated concrete slab. Heating was originally done by oil furnace which was replaced after 30+ years of faithful service. The copper in the house NEVER leaked. STILL hasn't leaked and the pipes are now 54 years old.

Only time will tell if PEX systems will last that long.

If you are paranoid about leaks, you can always braze the connections. As long as you aren't buying the not-up-to-code thin stuff, you should have no issues.

Of course, if you highly acidic water, copper and steel are probably a bad idea.

PVC: non-recylable stuff that you can't incinerate, can't recycle, degrades in sun (except the expensive UV inhibited stuff) - basically its nasty, nasty stuff. We shouldn't be making anything out of it.

PE, PEX, HDPE - these all can be recycled and pose far less environmental impact.