Power-Tracs are not cheaper in my opinion

[MossRoad]

List price???? What fool would pay list price?

Me!

For what it's worth, I had a PT425 order planned that totalled, with shipping something about $16-17K. I was close to doing that deal and would have if I'd called a week earlier before PT raised prices on July 4 a few years ago. In the end I paid about the same for a 21hp CUT with FEL, grapple, QA, BH and bush hog. Added a used finish mower and rake and chipper/shredder.

Good. Real numbers.

PT425 $10,000
Grapple bucket $1350
QA free
BH $3200 (you can adapt a PT2425 BH to a PT425)
QA plate for mentioned BH $150
Brush Hog $1100
Total $15,800
Add tax and shipping, etc...

 

[KentT]

So which gas powered CUT would you like to compare the PT-425 to?

They're a few gas-engined tractors that could be classified as SCUTs out there, but not common (nor is a PT)...

Here's a 25HP gas, 2WD from Cub Cadet, Cat-1 hitch and PTO (optional at extra cost), with a Kohler engine for $7999 MSRP or $8399 for water-cooled Kawasaki. That price doesn't include mower deck nor FEL (ratings unknown). I'll bet the FEL alone will add around $3K to that price....

Cub Cadet Lawn Tractors and Garden Tractors - Compact Tractors by Cub Cadet

Here's a 27HP gas from Simplicity (available also as a Massey-Ferguson or Agco -- the old Allis-Chalmers) in both 2wd and 4WD versions, with a limited Cat 1 hitch/PTO (optional at extra cost). The MSRP for the 2WD is also $7995, while the MSRP for the 4WD is $9195. Now add $1,450 for 48" mower; $1,650 for 54" mower; and $1,800 for 60" mower, and about $3K for the 500lb-rated FEL -- this one I know the price for...

Specifications - Legacy XL, Prestige, Conquest

I don't think I'll find ANYTHING new that will cost less, regardless of engine, that has an FEL with anything close to PT ratings and mower deck for the price of a PT... I couldn't when shopping before. If you go read my posts from 2005, I was about ready to pull the trigger on a new PT-425 when PTRich's used one became available. It wasn't the set of attachments I needed (for example, I don't need a finish mower but I did need a grapple bucket) but at that price, I felt I simply could not go wrong.

I priced the small Kubotas, Kiotis and New Hollands -- and the best quotes I was getting for one with an FEL and 4-ft roughcut were $14,000 and up... with the New Holland being the most expensive. I didn't shop John Deere, since there was no dealer conveniently close...

 

[IslandTractor]

MossRoad,

Your request is reasonable but difficult to comply with as CUTs are rarely sold for list price and all those individual components you request prices on are lumped into a deal. The only company that lists individual parts prices on line is JD and they are not a value leader by any means. Additionally, one would expect about 12% or so as a discount. You'd also have to figure in the much longer warranty value (mine is 4years).

A Kioti CK20 HST with FEL (1170 lift capacity) goes for about 12K and includes bucket
6.5 foot BH (KB2465) about 5K
48" Bush hog 600-900 depending on brand
60" Finish mower 1200-1800 ditto
60" flail mower 1400-1500
QA system 500-600 but this allows use of all skidsteer implements not just PT
QA 48" root grapple 800
Hydraulics for grapple 350-600 depending on type

Hydraulic pump on CK20 is about the same as the PT425
Weight of CK20 2000lb plus 700FEL plus about 700BH
No it doesn't fit in a pickup truck but if you have a pickup truck it will fit on a 16ft trailer with 7000lb capacity. Can you get your mower on the pickup truck with the PT?

No four point canopy available and Rops mounted canopy costs 200-300
Snow removal with CUT not as flexible and uses either standard bucket or rear mounted blade or rear mounted PTO driven blower ($$).

How much for a suspension seat on the PT425 (nice)
How much for a PT 1425 if you want to dig more than 3 feet down?

Costs of an equivalent JD, Kubota or NH would be more. Costs for an equivalent Mahindra, TYM would be about the same as the Kioti.

 

[IslandTractor]

Me!



Good. Real numbers.

PT425 $10,000
Grapple bucket $1350
QA free
BH $3200 (you can adapt a PT2425 BH to a PT425)
QA plate for mentioned BH $150
Brush Hog $1100
Total $15,800
Add tax and shipping, etc...

Shipping for me would have been $1700 as I recall and is a major factor in why the PT is not such a value. The poor guys on the West coast would think an additional $2500 for shipping would be a real bargain.

The PT BH is really not equivalent to a 6.5 ft CUT BH in digging capacity power or depth which explains the relatively low price of the PT BH.

CUT owners don't buy grapple buckets they just add grapple arms and hydraulics to their standard bucket. Cost is about $1000.

 

[KentT]

Would they not sell it to you at all, or did they just say they'd not honor any warranty if it was used commercially? Just curious. The first Power Trac I saw in action was a PT422 being used by a landscaper. I think, however, now that you mention it, didn't they change the commercial policy sometime after I bought mine in 2001? Sometime around when they changed their website, as I recall.

MR, according to the Scott, when I talked to him at length at PT, the PT-425 is by far their biggest seller, and the majority of the buyers are landscapers (1), nurseries (2) and rental stores (3). Consumers were fourth...

The PT 422 is specifically targeted at consumers now, and that's why it doesn't come standard with ROPs, lower lift height, one-steering cylinder, etc.

I think this change took place at the same time they changed from Kohlers to Robins in the 422s, but I'm not sure...

 

[SnowRidge]

Would they not sell it to you at all, or did they just say they'd not honor any warranty if it was used commercially? Just curious. The first Power Trac I saw in action was a PT422 being used by a landscaper. I think, however, now that you mention it, didn't they change the commercial policy sometime after I bought mine in 2001? Sometime around when they changed their website, as I recall.

If I recall correctly, they said they would refuse to sell me the homeowner machine if I tried to order it, since they knew the purpose was commercial. I do recall a specific phone conversation with Kim, I think it was, who flat out stated that the Robin powered PT-422 would not hold up under the mowing regimen that we envisioned.

 

[MossRoad]

MossRoad,

Your request is reasonable but difficult to comply with as CUTs are rarely sold for list price and all those individual components you request prices on are lumped into a deal. The only company that lists individual parts prices on line is JD and they are not a value leader by any means. Additionally, one would expect about 12% or so as a discount. You'd also have to figure in the much longer warranty value (mine is 4years).

A Kioti CK20 HST with FEL (1170 lift capacity) goes for about 12K and includes bucket
6.5 foot BH (KB2465) about 5K
48" Bush hog 600-900 depending on brand
60" Finish mower 1200-1800 ditto
60" flail mower 1400-1500
QA system 500-600 but this allows use of all skidsteer implements not just PT
QA 48" root grapple 800
Hydraulics for grapple 350-600 depending on type

Hydraulic pump on CK20 is about the same as the PT425
Weight of CK20 2000lb plus 700FEL plus about 700BH
No it doesn't fit in a pickup truck but if you have a pickup truck it will fit on a 16ft trailer with 7000lb capacity. Can you get your mower on the pickup truck with the PT?

No four point canopy available and Rops mounted canopy costs 200-300
Snow removal with CUT not as flexible and uses either standard bucket or rear mounted blade or rear mounted PTO driven blower ($$).

How much for a suspension seat on the PT425 (nice)
How much for a PT 1425 if you want to dig more than 3 feet down?

Costs of an equivalent JD, Kubota or NH would be more. Costs for an equivalent Mahindra, TYM would be about the same as the Kioti.

Thanks for the price breakdown. I know about the package deals with other tractors. I couldn't afford the package, so I wanted to know how much each individual piece cost if I chose to buy them down the road. I was shocked at how much attachments from the big 3 cost when purchased seperately.



O.K. Get out the adding machine...

Base CK20 with FEL and bucket is $12,000.
Base PT425 with FEL and large bucket is $10,450.

Backhoe is 5000 vs PT's 3200 but the Kioti BH will most likely work harder and be stronger. I don't have the specs for both.

Bush hog is 600-900 VS PTs 1200. Bush hogging out front is the bee's knee's. Having done both, I will never go back to rear mounted brush hog.

Finish mowers look to be about the same price. Finish mower out front is better than out back or belly, unless you want to bag clippings, then it has to be modified as PT offers no grass collection system. Finish mower out front allows mowing 3 feet under overhanging branches and allows me to get into tight corners. For instance, by attacking an inside fence 90 degree corner from both sides, I can get all but a 12" curved piece right in the corner. Cannot do that with a belly mower, and backing into a corner like that with a RFM will not be fun. Nor will a RFM get as close, especially if it is a side dischage.

QA is 500 VS free. Can it change implements from the drivers seat or does the operator have to get off and flip a lever?

Grapples are of different design. Your root grapple is less expensive, PTs grapple has a bucket. Hard to compare prices.

Kioti has to add hydraulics for the grapples, PT hydraulics are included.
I saw the hydraulic specs. Kioti was 7.8 GPM and PT was 8GPM for the main PTO. PT has 2500 PSI. What is the PSI of the Kioti? And, the PT has the AUX PTO that is capable of less GPM @2500 PSI while the main PTO is running. The PT has more versatile hydraulics than the Kioti.

The PT will do less compaction damage to the lawn as it weighs much less.
It will not scuff the lawn when in 4wd, although the non-pivoting trailing wheels on the mower decks can scuff the lawn in hard turns or damp conditions.

Snow removal with a front mounted power angle blade is awsome, to say the least. I have not seen the PT manufactured snow blower in use, so I do not know how well it works. But imaging what you could do with a snow blower that you can lift 5' into the air?

A suspension seat would have to be after market and probably be a couple hundred for a nice one.

So, based on my experiences with the PT425 sized machine, the topic of the thread being "Power Tracs Are Not Cheaper" just doesn't seem true to me. They seem to be a lot less expensive than a similarly equipped CUT for the jobs that I need to do.

I'd like to see some other tractors in here, besides the Kioti, which seems to give you quite a bang for the buck.

 

[SnowRidge]

With the way fuel prices have been going, the cost of operating any gas powered equipment is getting out of hand, and diesel isn't much better. I think anyone contemplating a purchase of any kind, PT, CUT, SCUT, UT, UV, whatever should look at life cycle costs.

Hydraulic drive increases operating costs, when compared to straight mechanical or conventional hydrostatic. You pay for the versatility it gives you, no matter what brand of machine or type of fuel.

I am dead certain that CUT life cycle costs will be lower than PT life cycle costs, but if the CUT won't do what you want, then its costs, life cycle or otherwise, are not material.

 

[Bob999]

if the CUT won't do what you want, then its costs, life cycle or otherwise, are not material.

Seems to me that SnowRidge is right on target. What is important is equipment that meets the buyers needs. Price of course is always a consideration for most of us but if the machine doesn't do the job it isn't desirable at even a very low price.

PT produces some relatively unique products and has a relatively unique marketing model. From the discussions here it seems that PT appeals to a very small niche market--but for those people it is the right machine.

 

[MuncyBob]

In MR's comparisons he applaued the in front attachemnts...and rightly so! One of the reasons I bought the PT is being able to see what I am doing just facing forward and since a lot of my seat time is grass cutting it just makes sense to me to cut the grass BEFORE you run over it with a heavy machine. All this all goes back to a previous statement though, determine the jobs you need to perform and buy your tractor accordingly! Wouldn't matter a rat's behind how much $$ I saved if the unit did not do the job well and easliy for me!