Power-Tracs are not cheaper in my opinion

[IslandTractor]

I'd agree that a used PT is a great value and I'd snap one up in a minute if it had 200 hrs and was 50% of retail. But as others have pointed out, that is a double edged sword if you are considering purchasing new. I don't get the impression that PT owners are forever playing the upgrade game that CUT owners get into (I'm guilty) but that may be partially due to the fact that you guys have to dump your entire collection of implements if you upgrade from say a T8 to T12 size and it is difficult to find a buyer as evidenced by the unfair depreciation.

The initial cost of a CUT of equivalent HP may be a couple thousand more than a PT425 but if you consider the fact that one is diesel and the other gas that difference is more than reasonable. If you compare the cost of a 30hp diesel PT to a 30hp CUT, the CUT is probably cheaper (eg Kubota B7800 or Kioti CK30) Both have equivalent loaders to the PT and are perhaps a more fair comparison than trying to find a match for the PT425. Kioti may have sold out of them by now but the LB1914 had at least as good specs as the 425 and could be had with loader for just under 10K. A new CK20 with loader is by almost any standard a more powerful machine than the PT425 and would cost less than 2-3K more. I sold my CK20 after 2 years and 200 hours for $2500 less than I paid new. That worked out to $12.50 per hour plus $1.50 in fuel (less than half a gallon per hour). Additionally I could buy and sell used implements for close to no loss and could use some of my implements on the new larger tractor. Those sorts of economic factors need to be considered along with purchase price.

I agree with Snowridge that the PT is the machine for wooded sloped areas where it's articulated frame and stability shine. I admire there general Swiss Army Knife nature greatly as well. That's why I'd snap up Kent's deal in a minute if I found one (and I'd sleep on the couch for a week smiling the whole time).

 

[KentT]

IslandTractor,

I agree with your points -- but this topic wasn't about diesel vs gas -- it was about price...

Nor was it originally about cost of ownership and depreciation....

I guess if you can't win the argument, you can always redefine it...

 

[SnowRidge]

IslandTractor,

I agree with your points -- but this topic wasn't about diesel vs gas -- it was about price...

Nor was it originally about cost of ownership and depreciation....

I guess if you can't win the argument, you can always redefine it...

So which gas powered CUT would you like to compare the PT-425 to?

 

[MossRoad]

As a PT wannabe who ended up buying a CUT, I'll come into this thread to defend the CUT. In my case I had an order form for the PT 425 and half a dozen implements filled out when PT raised prices and I decided to look one more time at the comparable CUTs. I ended up with a Kioti CK20 TLB for just a little more money than I would have spent on the PT plus implements plus shipping. I then paid an additional roughly $800 for a grapple and a similar amount for a bush hog. So, I did spend a bit more money than I would have on the PT.

What did I get that was different from a PT? The FEL lifted 1100lbs vs 800lbs and lifted it several feet higher. FEL work might seem quicker with a PT but an FEL with HST on a CUT is a pretty efficient machine and can load trucks much more easily. The grapples available for CUTs are not just grapple buckets and are simply more versatile than the PT grapple bucket. I can have one implement on the front and another on the back which is much more efficient for some tasks than going back and forth with the PT to change implements (grapple on front of CUT and bush hog on the rear is a tremendously efficient brush clearing combo). The BH digs a hole six feet deep and about 5 feet across and I can swing it 180 degrees without my moving or needing to dance around like a mad beetle removing and depositing one small scoop at a time. The PT minihoe costs about 1/5 as much and does no more than 1/6 the dirt removal per hour I would imagine unless you are talking about trenching or digging holes for plants. I'll take the BH for stumps and big rocks that need outing. I don't need to sit next to a loud gas engine and I pay about half as much for fuel per hr of operation. Engine replacement is not an issue on a diesel CUT (though I appreciate that a new PT engine is only about $1500 or so and a day's work so that is really not a biggie). I can buy and sell used 3pt implements without bother from someone other than a TBN member. I have much more traction than a PT and can drag/pull much more as well as push bigger things. What I miss most of the PT qualities is the ability to see where I am mowing when driving forwards into brush. Not such an advantage for regular mowing though. I'd also love a PT minihoe for the small jobs that don't require the BH (which is often not attached).

Now, guys, before you leap at me as a nasty intruder from CUTville, let me state clearly that I'd love a PT (422/425) in my barn next to my CUT and I think many people who own CUTs would be better served by a PT. However, don't get carried away by this PT pep rally. PTs are not head and shoulders above CUTs in either value or performance. And, don't just compare the PT to the Kubota BX series. There are better value CUTs out there for the same or less money.

Not going to jump on you because you made the decision that was right for you. I've told many folks that if you need to load trucks, a PT425 is not the machine for you due to the lift height. Also, if you need to do pulling tasks, the PT425 is not the machine for you either.

On the other hand, I can't see using a CK20 TLB to mow the lawn. It is longer, taller and weighs 700 pounds more without the FEL, backhoe and mower. A mid-mount mower will weigh at least 450, the backhoe will probably add at least 1000 and so will the FEL. Can a mid mount mower be used when the backhoe is on? So its looking at least 3000 pounds more than the PT425 with ANY attachment. It better have more traction.

So, what exactly are the price comparisons? If anyone can fill in the blanks below for any tractor, it would be most helpful to all of TBN for a head-to-head price comparison. (I used ORANGE just to be antagonistic, hee hee. ) And use the prices of new implements, because we are not buying used today. They can be from any source, like harbor freight. Just kidding.

PT425 list price = $10,000
OTHER TRACTOR with HST list price = ?

PT425 FEL = $0.00 It comes free with the tractor(see addtional attachment prices below)
OTHER TRACTOR FEL = ? (Please list choice of bucket so we can add a comparable one to the PT, thanks).

PT425 quick attach system = $0.00 It comes free with the tractor, allowing ANY non powered implement to be changed from the driver's seat in 15 seconds(here's video proof), powered implements require about 30 seconds longer to hook up the hydraulic PTO hoses(more video proof).
OTHER TRACTOR = hey, they don't have one that can do that from the driver's seat. And powered equipment requires a PTO shaft.

PT425 weighs ~ 1400 #
OTHER TRACTOR weighs ?

PT425 main hydraulics pump 8GPM @ 2500 PSI
OTHER TRACTOR?

PT425 can fit in the bed of a standard 8' pickup truck with an attachment hanging off the back.
OTHER TRACTOR cannot. Requires special equipment to haul from jobsite to jobsite.

PT425 canopy = $0.00 and is solid steel. Keeps falling objects off of driver.
OTHER TRACTOR doesn't offer a solid steel canopy. Will have to purchase after market.

PT 425 5 cubic foot bucket = $350
PT425 10 cubic foot bucket = $420
PT425 48" finish mower = $1200
PT425 60" finish mower = $1400
PT425 60" power angle snow plow = $450
OTHER TRACTOR doesn't offer a power angle snow plow for the FEL.

Oh, heck just click here for the complete price list of PT425 attachments. This is actually the price you will pay.
OTHER TRACTOR doesn't list prices on the web. Why not? So you can get soaked for the most money possible by the dealer if you are not a savvy negotiator.

Look, most of this is done tongue in cheek. None of us has the exact same needs in a machine as the next person. It is very hard to compare a PT425 to a standard CUT. If you are in the market for a machine, you need to identify the jobs that you need to do, then compare the machines that will do those jobs within the constraints of your time and money budgets. I know for a fact that in 2001, at the time I purchased, there was no CUT on the market that could do the jobs that I needed to do in the time that I had to do them for the money that I could afford. The PT425 was the hands down winner in my search.

So everyone get out there and list a model of tractor and the prices in the comparison above and lets get some real data on this subject. It will help many people with decision making and lead them towards the machine that best fits their needs, wether that is a PT425 or not.

 

[IslandTractor]

IslandTractor,

I agree with your points -- but this topic wasn't about diesel vs gas -- it was about price...

Nor was it originally about cost of ownership and depreciation....

I guess if you can't win the argument, you can always redefine it...

I think it is trivial and misleading to just compare list price. It is cost of ownership that is more relevant. I didn't redefine the argument at all, I just took it to it's logical conclusion.

Note also that I stated clearly that I'd love to have a PT and now that I know they lose half their value in the first 200hrs I will redouble my efforts to find one. Anyone want to sell me their PT425 kit for half price?

 

[IslandTractor]

PT425 list price = $10,000
OTHER TRACTOR with HST list price = ?.

List price???? What fool would pay list price?

Shipping? My dealer delivered my tractor 600 miles for free (well, I paid the ferry fees). Competition is a wonderful thing for consumers.

I'm also joking so please don't think I am trying to start a PT/CUT war. In the spirit of the original question though I do think it was fair to point out that PTs are great but NOT because of their price/cost of ownership which is simply not that remarkable considering what you get and don't get. They are great for other reasons.

For what it's worth, I had a PT425 order planned that totalled, with shipping something about $16-17K. I was close to doing that deal and would have if I'd called a week earlier before PT raised prices on July 4 a few years ago. In the end I paid about the same for a 21hp CUT with FEL, grapple, QA, BH and bush hog. Added a used finish mower and rake and chipper/shredder. There were definitely times in the past two years I wished I had the PT (mostly on slopes or when I needed to quickly change implements) but there are definite advantages for CUTs as well and I am sure you guys sometimes wish you had a real grapple or BH and a higher lifting stronger FEL or a 3PT or diesel or a few other things more likely found on a CUT. That's why I want both.

 

[Marks481]

When I bought my PT422 in 2005, I was specifically looking for a small tractor with bucket and backhoe capability. I just wanted something that would replace a shovel and pickaxe for excavating in very rocky soil, as well as an auger for planting and fences.

I priced the smaller kubota diesel at about $12k + $7k for backhoe attachment. Essentially for the price of a bare tractor with no attachments, I got the PT422, ROPS, minihoe, finish mower, 4N1 bucket, auger, forklift attachment with delivery to CT. I saw it as a plus that I could buy the smaller lighter version without a diesel. While a diesel would be nice, I did not want to pay the price premium for it, and the different PT models allowed me to buy what I coud afford (which with the Kubota meant NO backhoe, no 4n1 bucket, etc., although it would have a diesel...).

Another plus is that there are no frills in the construction of the PT line: no flimsy stamped metal shrouds; everything on the tractor serves a strucural purpose, and it is definitely not built lightweight in any way.

So is the PT less expensive? Yes, but partly because you aren't paying for capability you don't need. Comparing the PT425 to the Kubota BX22 is comparing apples to oranges, with the different engines and lift capability. Probably the first model that can reasonably be compared based upon power and capability is the PT2430, which when you compare against the Kubota line is pretty similarly priced when you find a model with similar lift capability (although none have the same hydraulic capability).

Bottom line, I didn't want to spend the money for a PT2430, it wasn't what I wanted. The PT422 fit my needs, and there was no CUT in this price range which offered the same capabilities.

 

[SnowRidge]

There are a couple of things that should be pointed out. Other than the PT-425 and 2425, gasoline powered Power Tracs are considered homeowner (non-commercial) machines. In fact, Power Trac refused to sell me a PT-422 for commercial use. I know of at least one PT-422 in commercial (ag) use, but I'm not sure PT knew what is was going to be used for when they sold it.

By contrast, small Kubotas and the like are used in commercial and ag (Xmas tree farming, for example) all the time.

 

[MossRoad]

To all:

I want to see the price breakdown of any tractor and attachments that are close to size of the PT425. I need to see the actual numbers to make the comparison. So, if you own another tractor that is anywhere near the size of a PT425, please fill in the orange fields in my previous questionaire and the question marks. I'm not trying to make any other tractor look bad compared to the PT425 or the PT425 look better than another tractor. We just need to see the actual numbers to compare so that we can see how much these machines cost.

 

[MossRoad]

There are a couple of things that should be pointed out. Other than the PT-425 and 2425, gasoline powered Power Tracs are considered homeowner (non-commercial) machines. In fact, Power Trac refused to sell me a PT-422 for commercial use. I know of at least one PT-422 in commercial (ag) use, but I'm not sure PT knew what is was going to be used for when they sold it.

By contrast, small Kubotas and the like are used in commercial and ag (Xmas tree farming, for example) all the time.

Would they not sell it to you at all, or did they just say they'd not honor any warranty if it was used commercially? Just curious. The first Power Trac I saw in action was a PT422 being used by a landscaper. I think, however, now that you mention it, didn't they change the commercial policy sometime after I bought mine in 2001? Sometime around when they changed their website, as I recall.