Power-Tracs are not cheaper in my opinion

[MossRoad]

With the way fuel prices have been going, the cost of operating any gas powered equipment is getting out of hand, and diesel isn't much better. I think anyone contemplating a purchase of any kind, PT, CUT, SCUT, UT, UV, whatever should look at life cycle costs.

Hydraulic drive increases operating costs, when compared to straight mechanical or conventional hydrostatic. You pay for the versatility it gives you, no matter what brand of machine or type of fuel.

I am dead certain that CUT life cycle costs will be lower than PT life cycle costs, but if the CUT won't do what you want, then its costs, life cycle or otherwise, are not material.

Very true on high fuel consumption. I had that old IH 2500b that had a 4 cylinder gas engine and HST drive. As with most HST units, you have to run them at high RPMs most of the time to get maximum torque out of the thing. One exception was the Earth Force unit that Mark Chalkley had(still might have). He did some mods to it so that as it required more power, the engine revved up. When it didn't need so much power, it revved down. He had that thing sipping fuel. I think it has a Kubota turbo diesel. But that machine and setup is very unique.

However, considering that I only put about 50-75 hours a year on it, I will never see any measurable cost advantage to using gas over diesel fuel over the life of the machine. 20cents a gallon savings at a gallon and a half an hour at 50 hours a year VS a little less fuel consumption for a diesel over a 10 year period.

 

[Gravy]

I don't see why people think Power Tracs are cheaper than regular tractors. When I was first considering the 425, my next choice was a Kubota BX series because of similar size, stability on hills, 4WD, etc? Comparing the 425 to the BX, and going by current prices, by the time you put a bucket and mower on both, it's about $13,500 for the BX versus $11,750 for the 425. Ignoring shipping and taxes, I will certainly admit that the $1750 difference is significant. However, for the difference, with the Kubota you get: a great diesel engine, a two speed drive system with real axles, ability to use many cheap 3 point attachments, a real warranty, an established and widely available dealer network, and much less depreciation if you need to sell. Given the efficiency of the diesel versus the gas PT, I'm sure you could make up the cost difference in fuel savings alone over the life of the tractor. Further, due to competition, many attachments (e.g., post hole diggers) can be had for much less than PT charges. So, I do not think that Power Tracs are cheaper than Kubotas when all things are considered.

To be clear, I did buy the 425 due to its better maneuverability, better capability as a loader, out front attachments, and quick attach feature. I just thought it would suit my needs better. However, I never thought it was cheaper.

Going back to the original post - I got to wondering today... has anybody here actually said that PTs are cheaper than regular tractors? My (notoriously unreliable) memory is of people saying that the PT's *do what we need* cheaper than anything else we can find. That isn't quite the same thing. Am I wrong?

Gravy

 

[IrTxRx]

Ia.) Our local Kubota dealer had a new 45hp shuttleshift (not HST) listed with loader, shredder and BB for $16.5K for the package. I think this unit would do about as much work as a pt 1430 (maybe more) and be less manueverable, not able to help much in the yard and significantly less safe on my slopes.

Ib.) The PT 1430 package I am looking at with grapple, LMB, brush cutter, minihoe, and wheel trencher is $25K after shipping. I will have 3 additional implements (hoe, trencher and grapple) and PROFOUND maneuverablility and stability. And it will likely have some significant mechanical repairs to do after about 15 hours of use (at least that's how it seems reading posts).

Still, It feels like a smaller PT cost $10K more

IIa.) The 3 used PT 1430's I have seen on the internet have gone for 40-60% of same new PT package.

IIb.) CUT -- if you don't like it, sell it in a few years for almost what you paid for it.

I would have already bought my 1430 in a minute if one of two conditions were true:
1.) They were mechanically reliable (similar to a diesel CUT)
or 2.) I had more mechanical abilities

I don't care if a PT is more expensive... I care that I'm spending an extra $10K on a package that may be a dud (money is too hard to come by)

BTW -- I think I'm going to go ahead and buy the PT... you only live once, life's no fun without some gambles and I don't depend on the PT for my living.

PLUS, I can enjoy all the savings of not having to take community college courses (welding, metallurgy, hydraulics, petroleum engineering, mechanics). The PT will be a OJT bonanza

 

[SnowRidge]

Ia.) Our local Kubota dealer had a new 45hp shuttleshift (not HST) listed with loader, shredder and BB for $16.5K for the package. I think this unit would do about as much work as a pt 1430 (maybe more) and be less manueverable, not able to help much in the yard and significantly less safe on my slopes.

Ib.) The PT 1430 package I am looking at with grapple, LMB, brush cutter, minihoe, and wheel trencher is $25K after shipping. I will have 3 additional implements (hoe, trencher and grapple) and PROFOUND maneuverablility and stability. And it will likely have some significant mechanical repairs to do after about 15 hours of use (at least that's how it seems reading posts).

Still, It feels like a smaller PT cost $10K more

IIa.) The 3 used PT 1430's I have seen on the internet have gone for 40-60% of same new PT package.

IIb.) CUT -- if you don't like it, sell it in a few years for almost what you paid for it.

I would have already bought my 1430 in a minute if one of two conditions were true:
1.) They were mechanically reliable (similar to a diesel CUT)
or 2.) I had more mechanical abilities

I don't care if a PT is more expensive... I care that I'm spending an extra $10K on a package that may be a dud (money is too hard to come by)

BTW -- I think I'm going to go ahead and buy the PT... you only live once, life's no fun without some gambles and I don't depend on the PT for my living.

PLUS, I can enjoy all the savings of not having to take community college courses (welding, metallurgy, hydraulics, petroleum engineering, mechanics). The PT will be a OJT bonanza

That's a very, very low price for the Kubota. I paid a similar price for my 35 HP shuttle shift Branson with loader and HD BB almost five years ago. Are you sure it's new?

On your last point, why do you think that you won't have to take a welding course, if you buy a PT, or a CUT for that matter?

 

[MossRoad]

Going back to the original post - I got to wondering today... has anybody here actually said that PTs are cheaper than regular tractors? My (notoriously unreliable) memory is of people saying that the PT's *do what we need* cheaper than anything else we can find. That isn't quite the same thing. Am I wrong?

Gravy

I thought I said it. I'll say it again. My PT425 was less expensive ( I don't like the word cheap when referring to my baby) than any CUT that could do the same jobs.

 

[Barryh]

I thought I said it. I'll say it again. My PT425 was less expensive ( I don't like the word cheap when referring to my baby) than any CUT that could do the same jobs.

So let me see if I got this right, if you had the choice and could do it all over again. Which would you choose a CUT or your PT425 ??

 

[IslandTractor]

So let me see if I got this right, if you had the choice and could do it all over again. Which would you choose a CUT or your PT425 ??

I wonder what he'll say?

No one who studies the PTs can fail to be impressed with some of their advantages over a CUT for specific tasks and situations. The PT crowd is less interested in discussing the shortcomings but I think it is pretty clear that CUTs have some advantages too. As far as I am concerned, every red blooded American male deserves at least one of each!

The cost issue, which was the original topic, is difficult to resolve and I think that means that the two types are pretty close in purchase price. People quote the cost of the PT425 as 10K but you cannot get one for that price as you'll need to pay shipping which is generally not a cost with CUTs. As noted, for myself the cost of a bare bones PT was 10K plus 1700 shipping. That is essentially the same price as a 21hp diesel tractor with a stronger FEL than the PT. Some implements are cheaper with the PT and some with the CUT. But if you don't buy all your PT implements at the same time as the tractor the cost of PT implements is sky high due to shipping. CUT guys buy and sell used implements all the time and so that is a legitimate and cost effective part of the CUT experience and economy which is in general not part of the PT owners experience. Bringing up resale value seems to be considered hitting below the belt by the PT owners (I'd be sensitive too unless I was Kent and the beneficiary of that unfortunate and unjustified depreciation factor). Having a dealer close by, regardless of whether you bought from him, is a convenience that Tazwell cannot answer. PT guys stick together as well as any forum group on TBN however (witness the defense of PT honor in this thread) and that is a big plus for ownership so long as you can distinguish a wrench from a hammer.

Despite my not accepting that PTs are less expensive, I don't think you'll find any CUT owner who is not jealous of the ability to bush hog or mow while comfortably facing forwards. Slapping on a minihoe when you need to dig a hole for Mrs Tractor is surely also to be desired. Struggling with the 3PT implements is not much fun though there are developments in that area such as telescoping links and quick connects that make is much less burdonsome. QA adapters on loaders are more common as are CUT sized QA implements and many more CUT owners are adding front hydraulics (at extra cost) so I don't think the PTs advantage in that area is as clear cut as a few years ago either. Although I haven't seen anyone do it yet, it would be trivial to adapt a PT minihoe for a CUT QA for about $200 that would have the same functionality as on the PT. Not so easy for a PT to attach a serious backhoe though and you'd need to fabricate a real grapple if you wanted one. Despite the overblown difficulties with 3PT and PTO driven implements, they are very efficient and there are lots of options that are just not really available to the PT. A boxblade on a PT is simply not going to work as well as one on an equivalent diesel CUT.

I'd still love a PT but mostly because they are versatile tools, not because they offer any real cost savings in purchase price, operating costs or total cost of ownership over equivalent CUTs.

 

[Barryh]

I wonder what he'll say?

No one who studies the PTs can fail to be impressed with some of their advantages over a CUT for specific tasks and situations. The PT crowd is less interested in discussing the shortcomings but I think it is pretty clear that CUTs have some advantages too. As far as I am concerned, every red blooded American male deserves at least one of each!

The cost issue, which was the original topic, is difficult to resolve and I think that means that the two types are pretty close in purchase price. People quote the cost of the PT425 as 10K but you cannot get one for that price as you'll need to pay shipping which is generally not a cost with CUTs. As noted, for myself the cost of a bare bones PT was 10K plus 1700 shipping. That is essentially the same price as a 21hp diesel tractor with a stronger FEL than the PT. Some implements are cheaper with the PT and some with the CUT. But if you don't buy all your PT implements at the same time as the tractor the cost of PT implements is sky high due to shipping. CUT guys buy and sell used implements all the time and so that is a legitimate and cost effective part of the CUT experience and economy which is in general not part of the PT owners experience. Bringing up resale value seems to be considered hitting below the belt by the PT owners (I'd be sensitive too unless I was Kent and the beneficiary of that unfortunate and unjustified depreciation factor). Having a dealer close by, regardless of whether you bought from him, is a convenience that Tazwell cannot answer. PT guys stick together as well as any forum group on TBN however (witness the defense of PT honor in this thread) and that is a big plus for ownership so long as you can distinguish a wrench from a hammer.

Despite my not accepting that PTs are less expensive, I don't think you'll find any CUT owner who is not jealous of the ability to bush hog or mow while comfortably facing forwards. Slapping on a minihoe when you need to dig a hole for Mrs Tractor is surely also to be desired. Struggling with the 3PT implements is not much fun though there are developments in that area such as telescoping links and quick connects that make is much less burdonsome. QA adapters on loaders are more common as are CUT sized QA implements and many more CUT owners are adding front hydraulics (at extra cost) so I don't think the PTs advantage in that area is as clear cut as a few years ago either. Although I haven't seen anyone do it yet, it would be trivial to adapt a PT minihoe for a CUT QA for about $200 that would have the same functionality as on the PT. Not so easy for a PT to attach a serious backhoe though and you'd need to fabricate a real grapple if you wanted one. Despite the overblown difficulties with 3PT and PTO driven implements, they are very efficient and there are lots of options that are just not really available to the PT. A boxblade on a PT is simply not going to work as well as one on an equivalent diesel CUT.

I'd still love a PT but mostly because they are versatile tools, not because they offer any real cost savings in purchase price, operating costs or total cost of ownership over equivalent CUTs.

I think this augment could go on and on based on out right cost alone. Also a lot of apples to oranges here. A CUT and a PT are two different concepts, two different use machines. So it is nearly impossible to say which one is really less expensive to own. Cost is only relevant to ones perception of how much is too much.

Different people have different ideas of cost based on their own particular needs. It really gets down to which tractor is gong to meet your criteria. Example for my little one plus acre. I wanted something Versatile and very compact yet powerful for its size and more than just a garden tractor. Thus the (Under Estimated) and mostly Ignored on here... PT 180.

I'd feel silly driving anything larger than a 425 around my property. The word over kill comes to mind. CUTs have their advantages also, for what they are designed to do. When I buy more land in the future around retirement age, you can bet I'll have one of each.

I love any type of tractor / equipment. I bought two large old garden tractors a Deere 140 and a Cub 108. I and can't seem to give them up they are so fun to ride around the property and work on I love the old school design. They will make nice backup mowers to my Craftsman if it ever dies. I'lll be restoring them thus taking up more desperately needed garage space.

PT's have their advantages for others. They are perfect for the personal property owner, or landscaper. I can drive my PT through a standard 40 plus inch gate. I can maneuver through the thickest of woods / trees not get stuck, and it will drive through 12 inches of snow in the same woods without any problem.

It goe's through wet grass without leaving hardly a track on my lawn. I have picked up some huge trees, moved them, and dragged them in tight places. I dug up at least a 600 pound tree stump using my rock bucket alone. Yes it was a lot of work for the little green guy, but It did it. I dug a pond the same way. I've used it to bury electric lines. The PT is a unique machine and does anything I have needed it for within reason.

I have many more projects planned for around my place and I know the PT will save me from breaking my back. Which is the better tractor a CUT or a PT? I'm sure both types are good machines depending on your needs. Which cost less to own? I think every individual will make up their own mind on that one.

 

[SpringHollow]

Just to be clear, the larger PT's in particular can use many skid steer attachments made by other manufacturers and there are 3 pt adapters (unpowered - cheap, powered - not so cheap ($1300)) that allow one to use 3 pt equipment on their PT. All of these allow the use of existing, used, or new equipment from sources other than PT. So root grapples, etc. can be easily purchased to use on PT's.

I have a non-powered 3 pt adapter and use my existing lifting boom, york rake, box blade, and back blade. I expect to build a powered 3 pt adapter so I bought a used flail mower and I have a 3 pt rotor tiller. I also bought a beat up snow plow with hydraulic turn and attached a plate to it so I can now use it on my PT.

I purchased a mini hoe from Lackender that digs 6' deep with 6" and 12" buckets (I have not tried the 6" bucket with self cleaner yet), movable HD forks, and a 1 yd Bucket with tooth bar.

I have PT's 92" bush hog, stump grinder, boom mower, and grapple bucket.

I really liked the CUTs I have owned but for MY needs, I would never go back to a CUT. The biggest reason is that the slope and low ground impact capabilities of the PT actually let me use it on my property where the CUTs were restricted to the driveway except for every few years when we would have an extremely dry spell or the weeping springs froze in an exceptionally cold (-20ｰF) winter. All of the other pluses to a PT (quick attach, maneuverability, etc.) were just gravy. Well, the quick attach is more than gravy.

As others have said, the best of both worlds would be a CUT and a PT. My brother does some farming and has horses so he has a 25 HP 4WD and a 45 HP 4WD because one size CUT does not meet all of his needs. He is even considering adding a 3rd larger tractor. I have told him since he needs at least 2 tractors, he should replace the 25 HP CUT with a PT and then he would be in a really nice situation. His 45 HP would be great for lifting 2000 lbs high and for ground work, the PT would be great for bucket work, etc. One of the large PT 1460's would meet my needs instead of a large CUT because it has a good lifting capability and I do not use bottom plows, etc.

As a side note, I will have to dig a foundation for an addition for him in a few weeks. The contractor can not use his back hoe because there is a steep hill too close to the house in addition to a septic tank that he would repeatedly have to go over. The contractor saw me digging a 130' trench and asked if I could dig the foundation as well. I know the septic tank will not be an issue for the PT since I went over it many times not realizing it was there. The leach fields would also have been an issue for his back hoe.

In summary, the PT just does a much better job of meeting my needs. I know I rsik sounding like a broken record (for those that remember what a record is),but evaluating which tractor best meets ones needs is what everyone needs to do when purchasing a tractor.

Ken

 

[ponytug]

Just to point out, if you are going the OJT route, that there are some great technical video rental places;
SmartFlix, the Web's Biggest How-To DVD Rental Store
and
Technical DVD Rentals

The latter comes highly recommended from many readers of "MAKE" magazine (a source of DIY hacks on all sorts of items.)

All the best,

Peter

...BTW -- I think I'm going to go ahead and buy the PT... you only live once, life's no fun without some gambles and I don't depend on the PT for my living.

PLUS, I can enjoy all the savings of not having to take community college courses (welding, metallurgy, hydraulics, petroleum engineering, mechanics). The PT will be a OJT bonanza