project update... If only!!!! Long

[EddieWalker]

Thank you for the latest update. We're all pulling for you!!!

I knew the job was sloppy from the quality of the finish, but why was the stregth so low? Did they say? Those numbers really suprised me. Especially since they seem to cover various areas. I expected there to be pockets that would be bad, but that sounds like the entire slab is bad.

Too bad you could juse get rid of this guy and start fresh, but with him paying for the new pour, and you making sure he does it right this time, maybe he'll do a better job.

Do you have a contract with him to do the entire building? Can you get out of it? Can you fire him the second the concrete is poured and get somebody else to build it for you?

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[TwinWillows]

Yikes - 1700 PSI concrete is hardly concrete, more like grout/mortar. Certainly would not carry much load w/o spalling & cracking. You're doing good to get it torn out & replaced. J bolts can easliy be installed prior to pouring concrete if the carpenters take some time to build a template w/holes matched to the colum baseplate holes. This is usually done w/2x4's and plywood. If the contractor does not have the skills to do this, and or you don't have access to shop drawings for the column baseplates going w/epoxy is the 2nd best solution. Just don't use the hardware store 5 minute variety of epoxy. Go to someplace like Granger or Fastenal (no plugs just places I use) & buy the real thing from Hilti (again no plug just what I've used before). Make sure you use real anchor bolts not cheap grade 2 hardware store stuff & drill the holes in the concrete the correct size as recommended by Hilti (or who ever you use as an epoxy supplier). They MUST blow the holes out after drilling or the dust will prevent the epoxy from bonding to the concrete. Leave enough bolt thread sticking up to get a washer & 2 nuts on & you'll never have to worry about anything getting loose.

The above from over 25 yrs in heavy industrial construction. Might be overkill for your building but done right is done once!

 

[KYErik]

When the contractor saw how weak the concrete was, they probably didn't complain much about having to rip out the bad slab- it probably crumbled into chunks relatively easy...

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Glad to see things are working out for you. Adding the J-bolts afterwards is the best way to go. When we do foundations at the machine shop we build pockets and attach them to our forms (a lot of work)and pour the concrete around the pockets where the bolts are suppose to go. This way, after the concrete is cured they have plenty of room to postition the bolts where they want to make sure the machine is where they want it. The way this guy did things made me laugh. Hopefully, having inspectors on site this time around will force him to do a good job and hopefully he will bring in someone that knows a little something about concrete.

I posted a thread about the last foundation we did there and you can see the pics in the thread http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/12062-new-foundation.html For the type of foundation you are doing it wouldn't work out too well but who knows it might help someone in the future.

 

[tile]

BayouMan,

I agree with you completely, it has got to be the worst ever. The perserverance part is more along the "what are you gonna do?" line of things. It hasn't been long enough for me to laugh yet and I do feel like crying sometimes.


Eddie,

The strength was low because of the water that was added. The water was what started this whole thing. I "found" tickets for the concrete in the field that showed the added water amounts. Which lead me to ask for all the tickets and that's when I found I had 38 yards of concrete and 360+ gallons of water and considering that the concrete company will only stand by 10 gallons per load which would have been less than 40 in my case means too much water. This was added directly to the truck which compromised all of the concrete not just some of it.

I went back and forth with having him fix the mess but legally he has the right to correct his mistake and I guess I would want the option if it was me but if it was me I would never have done that. So, it's just one of those things that I can't wait to put behind me. He's going to pay for the testing but I'm going to have them watch the next pour to avoid any problems with the contractor and/or the concrete company. The trucks arrived at the site anywhere from 40-70 minutes after loading at the plant and then sat up to 30 minutes before starting to discharge. The contractor then took from 1 - 2 1/2 hours to get the concrete out of the truck. The response I am getting from the concrete company is that they have 90 minutes to get it to you and out of the truck. Not one of these trucks fell within the required time. The concrete company has no responsibility in this matter as they lay the blame on the contractor as he was in charge of ordering, calling for and handling the concrete. Mind you the drivers actually add the water to the truck but they do so at the request of the contractor so again no liability on the concrete company. I do not necessarily agree with this but that's not my business and why I will have the testing company onsite during the pour. He can send back all the trucks he wants to as I'm not paying for them this time around.

Gosh NO!!! I don't have him contracted to build it. Our original agreement was to let him pour the slab and install the building however he only gave me a proposal on doing the slab. Since we had a previous working relationship we weren't worried about legal contracts and such. I asked him if he would do this and he gave me a price on the concrete and we had some discussions but no formal contracts. He poured the slab and initially started to erect the building but that quickly came to a halt as I became aware to the concrete issue and he had drilled my base plates which by the manufactures notice has voided my warranty on the building. He is aware that his only responsibility at this point is to fix the mess he has created. Our now unwritten agreement is for him to replace my slab and my base plates at his cost and then "tile" and myself will erect the bldg. I know what your thinking and I know it's not easy. When we get to that point we may hire it out or we may put our gloves on and get dirty.


TwinWillows,

Hardly concrete, just what I thought. It's got what I call spider cracks but no true cracks but there is no weight on the slab either. As for the J-Bolts they typically should be easy to place. You may not have seen the earlier pics, maybe take a look they should still be there. here are approx. 130 bolts for the building and he originally had made the plywood template and lined them up (3 times) then when they poured smething came over him and he removed the template and the bolts and reinserted incorrectly. Only a few actually line up. And yes the baseplates where onsite the day of and before he poured. You mention column base plates, JSYK it's a "quonset" or round as I call it. Not your standard metal bldg. Thus having many more areas for potential problems.

Thanks for the heads up on the epoxy materials that I want to look for. I haven't thought that far ahead yet. With a mess like this it's easiest to take baby steps and try not to get ahead of myself cause then I may not catch the next mistake. Again thanks for the heads up on the dust. We do tile and epoxy floors so we know all about the dust factor, too much sometimes I think. I may not have thought about the dust in the holes however.

done right is done once

that's how we like to think of it, done right the first time. That's what I say. Who wants to spend all day fixing thoughtless mistakes.


KYErik,

He didn't complain much. I can't say he was eagar to rip it out either. After I had it tested he had another testing company test the footers, can I say his friend works there. The results were much better than the ones I got but he said that he would do whatever it took to make us happy. So far he is attempting it.

Yes it did come out in rather small pieces, although there were a couple larger chunks but we had a ton of rebar in the slab.



As always I'll let you know what happens next.

Stay tuned for the next episode

 

[tile]

Hi guys.
Just here for a update

The slab has been repoured, the footers were done last Friday and the slab was done last Tuesday. The contractor himself won't come out, he sent his crew to do the work. Was hoping he'd atleast want to make sure it was done right or be here to solve any issues. We did not have him install the bolts, we will do that when we install the building. I'll post new pics in the next day or 2. He has not / will not cut it. I'm trying to get my neighbor to do it this weekend, his dad is a concrete guy. I know, should have hired him but we all know about hind-sight.


Day 1

In light of the past I hired a testing company to monitor this past pour. It was the same testing company that did the core tests on the first slab. The day before the pour he called me up telling me he wasn't going to pour because he didn't have the money for the concrete, wanted me to pay for it again. I told him to pour when he got the money. I had the testing company on hold pending further notice. The next morning, the day of the pour, I called the concrete company who informed me he was coming to pay and they would be out soon. So I called the testing company and told them to come on out. This was no surprise because he wasn't thrilled with the testing company coming out. When he got here I was talking to him about the slab and showed him a few minor things that needed to be fixed. He reluctantly fixed them. He informed me it would be a flat pour with no recess. I told him it just needed to be as the prints say. He then called his guys and told them not to come out and he left, in a hurry might I add. From the attitude I was sure he was not coming back. He was obviously not happy. I told the testing guy that he could guy and a few minutes later I called his office. As I was speaking with the lady she told me that they were all coming back to the property to continue. I'm just shaking my head and thinking this is not going good at all.

So did I say earlier that Steve (the testing guy) arrived at 9:00 am. Yes, the day started @ 9 am and the concrete got here @ 3:30 pm. By the time the concrete arrived the contractor had left for a second and final time. He was no where to be found. The concrete arrives and the the concrete guys didn't realize that it was getting tested and they weren't happy when they were told they could not add water, none was to be added. The first truck was sent away with 1+ yds left as it had taken too long to get out. The second truck which was only four yds arrived with a slightly higher slump but Steve allowed it because it was late and it would have left us with a cold joint in the footers. He made cylinders of all the trucks.

I had learned over the weekend that there was no fiber in the footers, which there was suppose to be. Not by design of the prints but because I paid for it before and if I had it then I wanted it now. So Monday I called the concrete company to let them know if it doesn't have fiber it will be sent back. I also let the contractor know how I felt. He agreed and it did arrive with fiber.

Day 2

Steve arrives at 7 am and the concrete shows up @ 7:30 am . They were allowed to add 13 gallons of water to the first truck but it came out at a 3" slump, the second truck was not allowed any water as it was at a 5". When the 2nd truck emptied the were short about 6+ yrds. The contractor was not here and once we were able to get ahold of him he very reluctantly went and paid for another 7 yds. (cash only account). The last truck came out at just over a 3" so he allowed 10 gallons of water. He made cylinders for all the trucks for later testing. The pour was done by 11:00am. They spent a little too much time finishing it and it's not as flat as it was before but atleast it's integrity is not compromised. Except for cutting it. I guess all in all it's a much better slab.

The contractor sent me a bill for 3800.00 for his labor. It was more than we originally agreed on but it was still within the realm of possibility. So I sent him a bill for my expenses

$1,155.00 base plates that the manufacture said needed to be replaced in
order to continue with my warranty.
$ 192.00 second pretreat, not required by county but contractor wanted.
$ 600.00 core test on first slab
$ 150.00 to cut slab, contractor won't do it
$ 84.00 fiber not placed in footers
$ 585.00 onsite monitoring by testing company.

That leaves him with a total of $1,044.00

He was not happy. When I sent this to him he called and all but cursed at me. I have to take that back there were a few sware words in there. He is refusing to pay for any of these costs. I 'm not really sure how this is going to wash but, I know it'll come out one way or another. I realize some of these costs maybe petty but I don't feel that I am being totally unreasonable.


I'll add more updates as they saga continues.

Pics coming soon

 

[EddieWalker]

Again, thank you for the update on your progress. It really seams unbleivable that this guy is in business. I am by no means an expert on concrete, but I have had a little experience with it. We pour in the heat of summer and don't add water to the mix. I just don't understand why they want to add the water?

I don't think you are being unreasonable with your bill at all. He is responsible for everything you listed, plus I would think allot more. He's lucky you don't sue him and add your time to his bill too!!!!

If I remember corectly, you know him from working with him on previous jobs. Is he still working? There must be others who have had similar results with his work. It just doesn't make sense that he would try this with you, but never done it before, or again.

Eddie

 

[rox]

I went back to the beginning and re-read the whole thread as some time has gone by. the best decision you made was to have the old slab removed, as long as the contractor was willing to do that.

i msut say I learned an awful lot, a real education about concrete. So even though it was painful for you at least by taking the time to post with good details you really ahve provided an education for many people. I note this thread has has about 4,000 views, a lot of people benefited by learning through your postings.

I now know that more people working the mud the better. We jsut got lucky when we built our last house, our new backyard neighbor said a freind of his was a foreman on a road building crew and did side jobs on the week-ends and evening. We had the friend come out he gave us a quote and a week later everything was done. In one day they set all the forms, poured a big back patio, about an 80ft drive, a parking slab and a sidewalk. I was amazed that 18 guys showed up early in the morning and worked all day, finished about 6pm i think. Now after reading you thread I realize how lucky we were that 18 experienced guys showed up. I do remember how fast they worked getting the cement spread around immediatly when the cement trucks pulled up. And the head guy was calling the cement plant and organizing exactly when to send the next truck. I didn't have any concept of how those details are so important until i read your post. I thought 18 guys was excesive, I could not believe the size of the crew (especially the price tag when I had to go out and buy lunch for everybody) but I figured that we were paying a flat rate so if they brought that many guys it didn't cost me any more. Really now that I think back about it, we were just dumb lucky. I didn't realize how lucky until i read your post. I really did learn more about concrete from your post than I learned from our own poured jobs. I didn't learn anything during our job I learned a lot reading about your job.

I did not think any of yourr expenses were pett You were really wise to think to get the testng company on site for the pour. i don't think i would ahve thought of that.

 

[bluetc30]

my heart goes out to you and adding to the bill most of important ...loss of warranty on the building

 

[Colin Giersberg]

I've always been led to believe that concrete has a certain level of strength based on it's mix and the materials used. Adding rebar to that mix increases the strenghth of the concrete by spreading out the surface area and allowing the concrete something to bond to. Haveing exposed rebar doesn't accomplish anything from my understanding. If it's just that one area, than a patch over it will keep it from rusting and make things pretty, but that will always be a week spot.

Concrete has strength in compression. It has almost no strength in tension.

While steel has strength in both tension and compression, the long, thin pieces of rebar would easily buckle if subjected to any significant compressive forces.

Reinforced concrete is a composite material which uses the strengths of both components to achieve its properties.

The way an engineer designs a reinforced concrete structure is to examine the tensile forces developed under the anticipated loads, apply a safey factor, and then specify enough bar to withstand the tensile forces. For most instances, unless you have a completely rediculous amount of bar (ever see a bank vault being constructed?), the area of the concrete times its compressive strength is so much greater than that of the steel that no calculation is ever done for compressive strength. The common term for this is "designing for the bar" or "designing for the steel".

Clearly, the structure is stronger if the bar is completely surrounded by properly compacted concrete, but I expect that the right grout would fill in the exposed voids in this pour. If I owned it, I would mix epoxy with sand, and force that into the exposed voids. Expensive and probably labor-intensive, but the epoxy-sand mixture would adhere well, and make a decent repair. Another possibility would be mixing up a grout with the concrete-adhering emulsions I have seen.

No it wouldn't be as good as doing the job right in the first place, but it could be "good enough".

If it's like you say, and I believe you're right, that pad will be moving for the next 30 years.

Probably longer. The house I live in had areas of uncompacted fill under concrete slabs. It was originally built in 1928. In 1988-89 I completely remodeled and rebuilt it. I had noticed some of the concrete slabs settling before I tore them out, and when I did, the dirt under them was still not fully compacted, 60 years later.

While I am replying befor I have read all of the posts, your suggestion, in my opinion, will not add any strength to the slab. It will only make it look better, maybe. The strongest slab is poured with the least amount of water needed in the mix, with the steel rebar thoroughly embedded in the concrete, at the right height above grade. I would not be surprised that the skim patch would eventually begin to flake off. I do believe that coring the slab, and submitting the cores to a lab for compressive strength testing will reveal a weak slab. Granted, the dirt backfill should have been compacted thoroughly before any concrete was poured on it, so the contractor has a claim there if this was not done. If it was, then I don't think he has a claim at all. I would definitely get the inspector out to look at the mess, and discuss options with an attorney. This may be something that gets solved in court.

Regards, Colin