Propane, Propane

[Scooby074]

Just got through converting from acetylene to propane after finding out that my LWS has raised the cost of size B from $55 to $85 as a result of the explosion of the plant which provided 80% of the carbide in North America.

Cost was $8, only because Air Liquide uses a unique fitting that had to be changed and $20 for a new propane torch tip. I had a second regulator for the propane tank

Everybody said, dont do it. Its slow. Not as hot. doesnt make clean cuts.. on and on. This isnt the case in practice. It may be a slight bit slower coming up to cutting temperature, but during the actual cutting, its as fast as ace, plus you can (should) keep the torch higher which means better visibility. There is a reason that many old school burning tables run oxy propane, good cut and cheaper. It cuts fine, dare I say as well as or better than acetylene, for 1/5 the cost. Plus fuel is as close as the nearest BBQ

Fits on the cart, with the other gases.

youll need a proper propane two piece tip, which is different than an acetylene tip



A cut as good as anything, in 3/8" flatbar




For you guys still running acetylene, make the switch! Acetylene is only going to get more expensive

 

[Notforhire]

Interesting about propane. A friend of mine used it for years, and was happy with the results. I don't remember him going to a different tip though.
Just wondering if you looked into MAPP? They used it where I worked. I have no idea of cost, or what is needed to change over.

Bill

 

[Arc weld]

Keep your tip about the same height as an acetylene tip. Propane spreads the heat out more. You might have been using a slightly big tip for that cut. The top edge is rounded from getting too hot or going too slow. Another trick is to angle the torch in the direction of the cut if the tip is a little too big. Burning tables use propane and natural gas because they are usually going through a lot of gas and with a motor controlled torch, speed can adjusted just right and it runs very smooth. On thicker plate propane has an advantage because the heat spreads out more and helps preheat a little more in front of the cut. Forgetting cost, I can do the nicest cuts with acetylene. It's easier to see what you're doing because the tips are smaller in diameter.

 

[Scooby074]

Cost is king right now!

Acetylene is great as long as somebody else is paying

Tip was a #1. Up to 1/2". Only propane tip on the shelf other than a #3 . Travel speed was OK IMHO. Had a slight tilt in direction of cut. Couldnt go much faster or Id get ahead of my heat. May have had a bit too much propane pressure (12psi). Heat does spread out more for sure vs ace. Takes longer to get the preheat in there, but it seams to heat up more of the steel. Ill get it dialed in. What Ive read on tip height was to keep the tip higher due to the fact that propane's hottest flame is at the tip not in the inner cone like acetylene.

Overall im very impressed.

Oh and for you helium balloon lovers, Helium has gone from $125 to $450 for a 291cuft bottle! Thats an eye popper for sure!

 

[Scooby074]

Interesting about propane. A friend of mine used it for years, and was happy with the results. I don't remember him going to a different tip though.
Just wondering if you looked into MAPP? They used it where I worked. I have no idea of cost, or what is needed to change over.

Bill

MAPP (propylene actually) is available. Didnt price it. Cost wise, I imagine its less than Acetylene but significantly more than propane. Plus it would be another bottle to lease $$

 

[Dr Dave]

So can you use a standard ace regulator, with that adapter? I have an extra regulator, do you have a part number for the adapter? My supplier wanted to sell me a complete new propane torch set when I asked about converting over. Thanks

Dave

 

[LD1]

Did you switch the hoses too. I know I have heard somewhere that hoses are different.

I am in the ""I dont like propane" camp.

I dont cut enough for cost to be a factor. But reliability is. As is speed normally. Propane always gives me fits. As you mention, slower to come up to temp. Much harder to start in even a slight breeze. And those tips, seem to plug easier and are more of a PITA to clean.

I have propane. Actually have had it for 3-4 years now on the same propane cylinder for awhile. Its one of those tall fat MH cylinders that when we got it, showed 100psi on the gauge. Went through 3 of the large O2 bottles and still have propane left. If/when it ever runs out, back to ace.

Also, some of the cost savings of propane is eaten up by consuming much more oxygen. Propane is still cheaper, added o2 is still a factor.

 

[deereman75]

For me, Im sticking with acet. My B tank will last me the better part of a year with my amount of use. Plus I do more brazing/soldering/gas welding than cutting. If I ever find myself doing a lot more cutting, I might set up a second rig with a straight torch for propane. I will always need acet though.

 

[yomax4]

There are also 1 piece propane tips that offer a little tighter flame. The regulators are the same CGA and will interchange just fine. The only difference is the Acetylene regs have the 15# red line. For the most part you wont go over 15# anyway ( unless you hook up a large Rose Bud ) and the cutting pressures are very close to the same as Acetylene. Now days they try to get you to buy Grade T hose that will outlast the regular rubber hose 3 to one. They did however use the regular hose for the past 100 years and they got by. MAPP isn't the same as Propylene. MAPP has some Acetylene in it and Propylene does not and it is a synthetic. The old MAPP was better than the new version that they recently started making again. All in all if you don't torch weld, Acetylene is not needed and the savings of an Alternate fuel is 5x over the cost of Acetylene. Not much chance of a flash back and you can open both knobs and light the torch if it's windy. Here is the kicker, I remember converting Fab shops, Farms, Factories etc over to an alternate fuel and all was well. I would go back a year later and they were using Acetylene again. I would ask why and they would say, " I don't know "..Everyone loves Acetylene and that also contributes to it's cost. I use both. It's hard to dial propane down for soldering and brazing and I get into some small touchy repais and only acetylene will work. Try an alternate fuel for cutting and decide for yourself. Lastly, Look it up and you will see that Propane has more BTU's than Acetylene. good luck.

 

[Dr Dave]

If the BTUs are more, why does it take so much more Oxy?

Dave

 

[LD1]

If the BTUs are more, why does it take so much more Oxy?

Dave

I may be wrong with this answer, I read it somewhere along time ago and trying to remember...

But its alot like air/fuel ratio in your car.

Ace wants 2.5:1 ratio.
Propane wants 5:1 ratio. Thus twice the o2 per given fuel just to burn hot enough to do the work.

Weather those numbers are right or weather the reasoning is right...I dont know. But I do know in practice, propane uses o2 about twice as fast as Ace.

 

[Scooby074]

So can you use a standard ace regulator, with that adapter? I have an extra regulator, do you have a part number for the adapter? My supplier wanted to sell me a complete new propane torch set when I asked about converting over. Thanks

Dave

Yup, standard regulator. You may have to change the nut and stem but that isnt likely unless you are with somebody who uses proprietary fittings.

 

[Renze]

I bought propane oxygen because most of what i do is heating stuck machine parts, or heating for bending. the occasional cutting (things the band saw doesnt take) will do fine too: in new steel it gives a wee bit more slag than O/A but i clean with the disk grinder before welding anyways.

Propane just doesnt weld, the gas mixture isnt inert so it will bubble the melting bath of the weld.


I just want to experiment with compressed air (from the shop compressor) instead of bottled oxygen for heating: if that works i'd try cutting too. Has anyone tried that ?

 

[Scooby074]

I may be wrong with this answer, I read it somewhere along time ago and trying to remember...

But its alot like air/fuel ratio in your car.

Ace wants 2.5:1 ratio.
Propane wants 5:1 ratio. Thus twice the o2 per given fuel just to burn hot enough to do the work.

Weather those numbers are right or weather the reasoning is right...I dont know. But I do know in practice, propane uses o2 about twice as fast as Ace.

I cant find the exact chart at the moment, but here is one comparing Acetylene and Flamal (propylene) and oxygen consumption. www.blueshield.ca/en/docs/pdf/marketingInfo/brochures/Oxy-fuel_PocketGuide_E.pdf


For 3/8" plate for example, #1 tip, Acetylene is 13.5 cfh @4psi and oxygen is 75cfh @30psi. Travel speed of 14.5-16.5ipm

Using Flamal29
#65 tip, Flamal is 4cfh @5psi and oxygen is 65cfh @45psi. Travel at 21-27 ipm

So that looks like Flamal burns less gas than Ace and cuts faster. I dont know where propane compares to Mapp (Flamal) regarding consumption, but I know that Im hardly burning any propane.

The only issue ive had so far relates to piercing on the edge of an internal cut on cold metal. Because of the time it takes to heat, and the large diameter of the heat zone on the metal, when doing a pierce it blows out oversize when the O2 is activated. When in the cut however the kerf is just about the same size as you get with ace. It could be a case of operator error though. Im still feeling my way through using propane. Its very close to ace, but has a few differences.

On tips, Ive been finding that the propane stays cleaner. The fact that the fuel holes are recessed helps alot. You can touch down on to metal without plugging the holes with crap.

Funny that some are having issues outside with propane because its all the scrap dealers and dismantlers use here. They cut outside in all weather, all year round.

 

[Stimw]

When cutting with a torch once you start the cut you can actually turn off the fuel and the O2 will keep cutting!!
A guy came by a shop that I used to work at with a deal that used a car battery and an O2 tank. You struck an arc with the battery at the torch and the O2 started cutting. It did work but for some reason we never bought it. That was about 30 years ago and I don't remember much else about it.
I have tried Propane at another shop that I worked. It sucked! When you are doing production you can't waste time on slow heating!

 

[Scooby074]

When cutting with a torch once you start the cut you can actually turn off the fuel and the O2 will keep cutting!!
A guy came by a shop that I used to work at with a deal that used a car battery and an O2 tank. You struck an arc with the battery at the torch and the O2 started cutting. It did work but for some reason we never bought it. That was about 30 years ago and I don't remember much else about it.
I have tried Propane at another shop that I worked. It sucked! When you are doing production you can't waste time on slow heating!

Oxygen lance. Exothermic cutting.
Absolutely awesome piece of equipment. One heck of a spark show. We used them to blow out pins on equipment (track links, excavator buckets etc.) that were stuck in the bore. Nothing like it.

Slow is relative I guess. Most burn tables run oxy fuel. In practice, hand cutting its really no slower once you get the pre-heat in there. Pre-heat time might be 20-30% slower for a properly adjusted torch?

 

[deereman75]

Its odd your acet cost so much. I just got mine filled today (B size, also air liquide) and it was $43. Maybe your dealer is using that plant as an excuse to jack up prices? Mine stayed the same?

 

[Scooby074]

Thats weird..

Prax is the same here. $85. Used to be $55. So its not just AL.

Everybody is complaining the price has gone through the roof (not just me). Wonder how come yours hasnt risen?

$45 is what I payed today for a Size9 of oxygen. $36.50 for gas + $2 Regulatory Compliance (BS) + $5.78 HST = $44.28 Right off the invoice.

 

[cqaigy2]

Back in the day, we used propane oxy in the shop but usually had acetylene out in the field. I liked the precision of acetylene but the propane wasn't too bad to use either. If i remember correctly, it seemed the propane took just a little longer to start the cut, but seemed to cut the same speed, im assuming because the oxy is really doing the cutting once your starting. We ran into similar issue with the initial cut being wider but seemed that if you concentrated on very bottem edge of the metal with a good angle toward your cut, it started faster so less of a pool of heated metal.

 

[deerseeker001]

I HAVE USED PROPANE FOR MANY YEARS ALL I DID WAS CHANGE MY TIP,LOVE IT.WORKS FOR ME.