Prosecute the parents?

[Anonymous Poster]

I think I have finally figured out what I am trying to say. It took a few rounds with Patrick but it is clearer to me now.

Here is the point I am trying to make:

I do not think that this guy should be prosecuted for his mistake. He didn't do a smart thing but I do not believe his actions rise to the level of a jailable offence. Notice that he did not do a terribly dumb thing like lock his kids in the car in the heat. Or let them ride on a flatbed truck down the freeway. Or have them hold his gun while he tied his shoelaces. There are a lot of decisions to be made on the farm and are we going to start watching over everything that is done with a ticket book at the ready?

I am not saying that this guy didn't do a bad thing, I am just saying that it was a mistake that comes under the heading of poor judgement more so than an obvious stupid criminal act. Bird had it right all along and sums up exactly what I am trying to say. I think the loss of a child is punishment enough in this particular case.

Which brings me to a question that I can ask...

What do all of _YOU_ think his punishment should be?
Maybe that would be a better focal point for this discussion.

I say community service consisting of some kind of ad campaign along the lines of "I killed my kid like this. It was a bad idea so how about you don't kill your kid too."

 

[Devildog]

My spin on this is the poor man was taking his kids on a ride. No intent on anything happening. Whether it had warning stickers or not is mute they are just warning signs not laws nothing more. Have you ever let anyone ride on your tractor with you? Just yesterday I seen a gentleman with his baby in his arms while he was mowing his yard on his riding mower maybe we should arrest him to for crimminal intent to injure his child. I use to take my son for a ride on the tractor all the time and in the manual it says no riders, you dont think about it at the time but(I dont anymore safety reasons)If he fell off and was killed I would be devestated, But as John said this man will have to deal with this the rest of his life. And if this man loves his kids as much as I love mine(which I think he does) He will have a very hard time trying to live the rest of his life out/w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif. Then he has to look his wife in the eye everyday also. This is not intended as no flame, its just that we are human and sometimes humans do dumb things.(hypothetically) As far as punishment if you would parade him around and embarrass him he might end up doing something to himself, then how would you feel. So I think he will be in his own prison the rest of his life and that to me is enough punishment. (We can still dissagree and get along here) So yall know my stand on this.
___________________________________________________
Take care, Jim

2001 B7500 HST 302 Fel R4 Tires
Semper Fidelis<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Devildog on 09/07/01 05:56 AM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Boondox]

I don't know about you, but I'm so completely overwhelmed by all those warning stickers for idiots (like the "Don't stop chain with fingers" warning on my chainsaw) that I hardly bother to read them anymore. They've become so common they're easy to dismiss as just another lawyer tag. Not saying they should be done away with, but this seems like a case of too much of a good thing to me.

Pete

www.GatewayToVermont.com

 

[skent]

Having watched my Uncle bury is 4 year old son due to his error in operating a tractor, (very similar to the case you mention, child's head crushed by rear tire) I witnessed the pain he went through every day for the past 37 years. My aunt was at the kitchen window and saw as the whole thing happed - she screamed even before the child was killed - she saw it all. . Each and every time he gets on that tractor the thoughts that must go through his mind. The prison he is still serving time in. She never foregave him for that. Their marrage continued (till she passed away some 11 years ago) but we all knew it was troubled.

My problem is like John said, we don't need more laws, we need for the agencies to enforce those laws and policies we have. I have (used to have) a friend the routinly let his 7 year old son drive the JD Ag tractor with manure spreader down a public road 3/4 of a mile to a field and spread the load. The boy was so small they taped wooden blocks to the brake pedals so he could reach them. He did the totally unsupervised. The farmers Brother in law was a state trooper, he knew about it, heck, he was there the day the boy drove the tractor into the manure pit, but never said anything. One day I pressed the issue and even went so far as to contact CPS. They didn't and wouldn't get involved. (They did a phone investigation - found no evidance of wrong doing - case closed.)

Steve

 

[dmccarty]

I don't know the answer to this problem/question/concern. My instant reaction is that its an accident and people should not be punished for accidents.....

Here are two accidents that have happened in my area over the last year or two.

Last September, a women who had just gotten her drivers license was at the Farmers Market. She had parked the car in front of an ATM machine. I have walked by that ATM machine numerous times. A dad and his toddler where at the ATM. The kid was in a stroller. The women got in the car, put it in drive, hopped over the curb onto the sidewalk and ran the kid over. She then put the car in reverse and ran the kid over again. I think she put it in drive again running the kid over a third time. That little kid died right in front of her daddy. HOW he did not physically attack that woman I don't know.... I guess the overpowering grief.

This women eventually was charged. But to what purpose? Revenge? She certainly did not mean to do what she did. And she has to live with that death for the rest of her life. Everytime she gets into a car and puts it in gear. She pleaded to the charge, was given probation and community service....

Prior to this accident there was "the little old grandma" who went to the school to pick up/drop off some kids. She ended up hitting the gas instead of the brake. She ran over three children. I can't remember if one was killed but they were really messed up. She was not charged. What was the difference in the accidents? Both are illegal and chargable. Why was grandma NOT charged like the young person?

My wife does something VERY stupid with our child. We have had two "discussions" about what she does and there wont be a third. She will start the kids bath water and then run around the house getting diapers, wipes, clothes, etc., that she will need when the young'n gets out of the bath. In the mean time the tub is filling with water, the kid will go in and start playing unattended. So far, the worse that has happened is the sweat little bugger has taken tissue and paper out of the garbage can and tossed it into the tub!!!! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif What a mess!

Now it would be very easy for the child to lean over, she is 16 months old, fall into the tub, knock her head and drown before anyone would notice. It would be all over in seconds. With the water running we would not hear a thing and I'm usually 15 feet away working in the office.... If my wife did this again and the kid did fall into the tub and drown should she be prosecuted? Why not? If the kid drowns she obviously endangered the kid and broke the law. Why should she NOT be charged? Especially since we have talked about how dangerous this is and all she has to do is get the baby stuff ready before turning on the water. How hard is that? How many parents do just what my wife has done? I bet most if not all......

I can ask the questions but I can't answer them. People do STUPID things all the time. I'm of the opinion that many people are just plain stupid most of the time. Laws and prosecution can't change that state of affairs. Laws and government can't force people to be safe or smart. AND the prosecution of these sorts of accidents is not at all fair and equitable. Not at all...

Later....
Dan McCarty

 

[Anonymous Poster]

<font color=blue>Don't shoot the messenger</font color=blue>

The messsenger did however suggest: <font color=red>. I would parade him around the state with before and after pictures of his son. Cute kid with smile (before) gruesome gory bloody mess (after)</font color=red>

Come on Patrick, give the poor SOB a break, he just caused his son's death. I'm not even that grumpy

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Patrick, you said that there had been a rash of these type of accidents in the recent past. Why didn't the DA act before this incident? Was he moved by compassion not to or was he just not doing his job?

I doubt seriously that prosecuting him or parading him around with gorey pictures of his dead son will prevent future accidents of this kind. This guy obviously hadn't learned from the other accidents.

Question: Does the law exist to serve man or does man exist to serve the law? Strict legalism will lead us to be a nation of Barney Pfieffs just waiting to pull the bullet out of our pocket to enforce the j-walking laws.

PitbullMidwest

 

[Anonymous Poster]

PitbullMidwest...

Now, that's a great way to get your point across... 3 times! /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

{Now Patrickg has to answer 3 times... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif}

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Oops /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif. Good thing Muhammad is around.

PitbullMidwest

 

[patrickg]

For heaven's sake, why not talk about what I originally reported rather than hypotheticals that change the situation enough to cloud the commentary.

Please note that the bit I reported on never said, nor did I, anything about jail time except that the prosecuter wasn't going to ask for any. Got that? Now we can all stop fussing over the evil decision to jail the moron. It was never, I say again for emphasis, N E V E R a consideration in the report (magazine's or mine).

Further, I don't think there are many in this agust forum so crass as to think the father will not supremely regret his loss and wish a thousand times a day he could take it back. Yes that is punishing but it is not punishment under the law and your protestations to the contrary not withstanding several laws were broken with calus disregard for the welfare of an innocent child that could not protect itself. That child has rights too under the law and is not the property of its parents to do with as they please. You might shoot your dog to put it out of its misery or because the feed bill is too high or play tag with it in your tractor but children are PEOPLE with rights. PARENTS have responsibililties and not just responsibilities of "ownership" but responsibilities which engender and create a sacred trust which society is loathe to allow violation with impunity.

Simply stated: He broke several laws. He is being charged with a couple lesser ones. DA is showing extreme leniency in his selection of charges and his not asking for jail time. The bozo is getting a tremendous break. What would you recommend that he get a state pension to compensate him for his loss of economic activity during his extended period of grief?

There are two seperate things operating here that some of us seem to "mush" together. The outcomes of this miscreants actions are properly separated into two distinct categories. Emotional and legal. The depth, breadth, and intensity of the first in no way modifies or negates the second. Whether or not he punishes himself with his own thoughts and memories is clearly in the first. The state has an obligation to deal with the second.

Another comment, not directed to Kubotadriver: For those who thought or were brave enough to say, "There but for the grace of God, go I." Consider the penetrating revelation intwined therein. You are admitting to having done something similar and by "luck/divine intervention" had a better outcome. If I were in that position I would be doing some deep soul searching regarding the care I took with the lives of innocents in my charge. If this were "just a phrase" or an "expression of relief" that chame to mind to indicate your concern that you hadn't suffered a similar loss but you don't really do things THAT stupid, that too is understandable and no knee-mail (prayer) on the topic neccessary.

And in closing... behind all the posturing, mine and all the rest, the only dissagreement I see is in confusing society's requirement to act when ANY of its members is so treated with a self inflicted punishment, however severe but not "official." Of course the mini-contest to out "sensitive" each other didn't help communicatons.

Patrick