Prosecute the parents?

   / Prosecute the parents? #21  
I think I have finally figured out what I am trying to say. It took a few rounds with Patrick but it is clearer to me now.

Here is the point I am trying to make:

I do not think that this guy should be prosecuted for his mistake. He didn't do a smart thing but I do not believe his actions rise to the level of a jailable offence. Notice that he did not do a terribly dumb thing like lock his kids in the car in the heat. Or let them ride on a flatbed truck down the freeway. Or have them hold his gun while he tied his shoelaces. There are a lot of decisions to be made on the farm and are we going to start watching over everything that is done with a ticket book at the ready?

I am not saying that this guy didn't do a bad thing, I am just saying that it was a mistake that comes under the heading of poor judgement more so than an obvious stupid criminal act. Bird had it right all along and sums up exactly what I am trying to say. I think the loss of a child is punishment enough in this particular case.

Which brings me to a question that I can ask...

What do all of _YOU_ think his punishment should be?
Maybe that would be a better focal point for this discussion.

I say community service consisting of some kind of ad campaign along the lines of "I killed my kid like this. It was a bad idea so how about you don't kill your kid too."
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #22  
My spin on this is the poor man was taking his kids on a ride. No intent on anything happening. Whether it had warning stickers or not is mute they are just warning signs not laws nothing more. Have you ever let anyone ride on your tractor with you? Just yesterday I seen a gentleman with his baby in his arms while he was mowing his yard on his riding mower maybe we should arrest him to for crimminal intent to injure his child. I use to take my son for a ride on the tractor all the time and in the manual it says no riders, you dont think about it at the time but(I dont anymore safety reasons)If he fell off and was killed I would be devestated, But as John said this man will have to deal with this the rest of his life. And if this man loves his kids as much as I love mine(which I think he does) He will have a very hard time trying to live the rest of his life out/w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif. Then he has to look his wife in the eye everyday also. This is not intended as no flame, its just that we are human and sometimes humans do dumb things.(hypothetically) As far as punishment if you would parade him around and embarrass him he might end up doing something to himself, then how would you feel. So I think he will be in his own prison the rest of his life and that to me is enough punishment. (We can still dissagree and get along here) So yall know my stand on this.
___________________________________________________
Take care, Jim

2001 B7500 HST 302 Fel R4 Tires
Semper Fidelis<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Devildog on 09/07/01 05:56 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #23  
I don't know about you, but I'm so completely overwhelmed by all those warning stickers for idiots (like the "Don't stop chain with fingers" warning on my chainsaw) that I hardly bother to read them anymore. They've become so common they're easy to dismiss as just another lawyer tag. Not saying they should be done away with, but this seems like a case of too much of a good thing to me.

Pete

www.GatewayToVermont.com
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #24  
Having watched my Uncle bury is 4 year old son due to his error in operating a tractor, (very similar to the case you mention, child's head crushed by rear tire) I witnessed the pain he went through every day for the past 37 years. My aunt was at the kitchen window and saw as the whole thing happed - she screamed even before the child was killed - she saw it all. . Each and every time he gets on that tractor the thoughts that must go through his mind. The prison he is still serving time in. She never foregave him for that. Their marrage continued (till she passed away some 11 years ago) but we all knew it was troubled.

My problem is like John said, we don't need more laws, we need for the agencies to enforce those laws and policies we have. I have (used to have) a friend the routinly let his 7 year old son drive the JD Ag tractor with manure spreader down a public road 3/4 of a mile to a field and spread the load. The boy was so small they taped wooden blocks to the brake pedals so he could reach them. He did the totally unsupervised. The farmers Brother in law was a state trooper, he knew about it, heck, he was there the day the boy drove the tractor into the manure pit, but never said anything. One day I pressed the issue and even went so far as to contact CPS. They didn't and wouldn't get involved. (They did a phone investigation - found no evidance of wrong doing - case closed.)

Steve
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #25  
I don't know the answer to this problem/question/concern. My instant reaction is that its an accident and people should not be punished for accidents.....

Here are two accidents that have happened in my area over the last year or two.

Last September, a women who had just gotten her drivers license was at the Farmers Market. She had parked the car in front of an ATM machine. I have walked by that ATM machine numerous times. A dad and his toddler where at the ATM. The kid was in a stroller. The women got in the car, put it in drive, hopped over the curb onto the sidewalk and ran the kid over. She then put the car in reverse and ran the kid over again. I think she put it in drive again running the kid over a third time. That little kid died right in front of her daddy. HOW he did not physically attack that woman I don't know.... I guess the overpowering grief.

This women eventually was charged. But to what purpose? Revenge? She certainly did not mean to do what she did. And she has to live with that death for the rest of her life. Everytime she gets into a car and puts it in gear. She pleaded to the charge, was given probation and community service....

Prior to this accident there was "the little old grandma" who went to the school to pick up/drop off some kids. She ended up hitting the gas instead of the brake. She ran over three children. I can't remember if one was killed but they were really messed up. She was not charged. What was the difference in the accidents? Both are illegal and chargable. Why was grandma NOT charged like the young person?

My wife does something VERY stupid with our child. We have had two "discussions" about what she does and there wont be a third. She will start the kids bath water and then run around the house getting diapers, wipes, clothes, etc., that she will need when the young'n gets out of the bath. In the mean time the tub is filling with water, the kid will go in and start playing unattended. So far, the worse that has happened is the sweat little bugger has taken tissue and paper out of the garbage can and tossed it into the tub!!!! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif What a mess!

Now it would be very easy for the child to lean over, she is 16 months old, fall into the tub, knock her head and drown before anyone would notice. It would be all over in seconds. With the water running we would not hear a thing and I'm usually 15 feet away working in the office.... If my wife did this again and the kid did fall into the tub and drown should she be prosecuted? Why not? If the kid drowns she obviously endangered the kid and broke the law. Why should she NOT be charged? Especially since we have talked about how dangerous this is and all she has to do is get the baby stuff ready before turning on the water. How hard is that? How many parents do just what my wife has done? I bet most if not all......

I can ask the questions but I can't answer them. People do STUPID things all the time. I'm of the opinion that many people are just plain stupid most of the time. Laws and prosecution can't change that state of affairs. Laws and government can't force people to be safe or smart. AND the prosecution of these sorts of accidents is not at all fair and equitable. Not at all...

Later....
Dan McCarty
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #26  
<font color=blue>Don't shoot the messenger</font color=blue>

The messsenger did however suggest: <font color=red>. I would parade him around the state with before and after pictures of his son. Cute kid with smile (before) gruesome gory bloody mess (after)</font color=red>

Come on Patrick, give the poor SOB a break, he just caused his son's death. I'm not even that grumpy
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #27  
Patrick, you said that there had been a rash of these type of accidents in the recent past. Why didn't the DA act before this incident? Was he moved by compassion not to or was he just not doing his job?

I doubt seriously that prosecuting him or parading him around with gorey pictures of his dead son will prevent future accidents of this kind. This guy obviously hadn't learned from the other accidents.

Question: Does the law exist to serve man or does man exist to serve the law? Strict legalism will lead us to be a nation of Barney Pfieffs just waiting to pull the bullet out of our pocket to enforce the j-walking laws.

PitbullMidwest
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #28  
PitbullMidwest...

Now, that's a great way to get your point across... 3 times! /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

{Now Patrickg has to answer 3 times... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif}

18-48044-JFM3BW5205SigFile.JPG
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #29  
Oops /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif. Good thing Muhammad is around.

PitbullMidwest
 
   / Prosecute the parents?
  • Thread Starter
#30  
For heaven's sake, why not talk about what I originally reported rather than hypotheticals that change the situation enough to cloud the commentary.

Please note that the bit I reported on never said, nor did I, anything about jail time except that the prosecuter wasn't going to ask for any. Got that? Now we can all stop fussing over the evil decision to jail the moron. It was never, I say again for emphasis, N E V E R a consideration in the report (magazine's or mine).

Further, I don't think there are many in this agust forum so crass as to think the father will not supremely regret his loss and wish a thousand times a day he could take it back. Yes that is punishing but it is not punishment under the law and your protestations to the contrary not withstanding several laws were broken with calus disregard for the welfare of an innocent child that could not protect itself. That child has rights too under the law and is not the property of its parents to do with as they please. You might shoot your dog to put it out of its misery or because the feed bill is too high or play tag with it in your tractor but children are PEOPLE with rights. PARENTS have responsibililties and not just responsibilities of "ownership" but responsibilities which engender and create a sacred trust which society is loathe to allow violation with impunity.

Simply stated: He broke several laws. He is being charged with a couple lesser ones. DA is showing extreme leniency in his selection of charges and his not asking for jail time. The bozo is getting a tremendous break. What would you recommend that he get a state pension to compensate him for his loss of economic activity during his extended period of grief?

There are two seperate things operating here that some of us seem to "mush" together. The outcomes of this miscreants actions are properly separated into two distinct categories. Emotional and legal. The depth, breadth, and intensity of the first in no way modifies or negates the second. Whether or not he punishes himself with his own thoughts and memories is clearly in the first. The state has an obligation to deal with the second.

Another comment, not directed to Kubotadriver: For those who thought or were brave enough to say, "There but for the grace of God, go I." Consider the penetrating revelation intwined therein. You are admitting to having done something similar and by "luck/divine intervention" had a better outcome. If I were in that position I would be doing some deep soul searching regarding the care I took with the lives of innocents in my charge. If this were "just a phrase" or an "expression of relief" that chame to mind to indicate your concern that you hadn't suffered a similar loss but you don't really do things THAT stupid, that too is understandable and no knee-mail (prayer) on the topic neccessary.

And in closing... behind all the posturing, mine and all the rest, the only dissagreement I see is in confusing society's requirement to act when ANY of its members is so treated with a self inflicted punishment, however severe but not "official." Of course the mini-contest to out "sensitive" each other didn't help communicatons.

Patrick
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #31  
/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gifPatrick, in your first post, you said <font color=blue>I don't have kids</font color=blue>. I concluded many years ago that the only people who really know how to raise kids are the folks who don't have any./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Of course, I never cease to be amazed at the dumb things people do, including myself. I guess you're the only guy I know of who's never done one./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I couldn't count the number of drivers I stopped when I was a young patrolman, before the days of mandatory seat belt and restraint laws, when I'd see a mother or father driving along with a small child or baby in their lap. I'd stop them and tell them, very politely, how the child would provide good padding between them and the steering wheel in an accident, but wouldn't do the kid much good. And of course, if they wanted to tell me it was none of my business, that was the end of it; nothing I could do.

Bird
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #32  
Patrick, reread what you said. You insinuated very strongly that no jail time was not adequate. And on more than one ocassion. However, this bickering and the heated tempers are taking away from the real story/ tragedy. I suggest that the bickering stop and we focus on safety in the future, not on how to punish the past. After all, this is a tractor site, not LA Law.

Just my humble opinion.

Keep the greasy side down.
Mike
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #33  
I have read this tread several times and find that I agree with both sides of the discussion, to a point. Those of you who are more articulate than I can carry on and hopefully solve the issue of what should or should not be done in this case. I do feel that this group as a whole are responsible operators of the varies equipment we work with and I think the value of the discussion is that we learn from others mistakes.

I don't know if anyone else has done it, but I have driven my tractor with someone in the loader bucket. I have ridden in the loader bucket, also. There will be no effort on my part to justify that, it is not the right thing to do. Will I ever do it again, can't say. What I can say is that I will think of this case when the situation comes up again.

I believe that is the DA's intentions by charging the father with a crime and I also think that was Patrick's intention when he started the thread.

If you believe all things happen for a reason, lets hope that part of the reason for this tragedy is that several thousand other tractor owners, on this forum, will remember this thread if they are tempted to let someone ride in the loader bucket.

Sincerely,

MarkV
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #34  
Patrick...

You are relentless.... /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

When you dig your heels in... you really dig them in...

I want you in the foxhole next to me... never never never ever give up... that's you! Really, I truly salute you for it.

It's Patrick against the world /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif... at least I get to increase my vocabulary every time I read one of your posts...

I must say Patrick... you are a most versatile guy... Go Man Go... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I've said it before... if you can channel all the energy you have, with little of our help[TBN members], we can get your Mom's home done lickety-split, take care of your neighbor from Haiti, and see your new box blade in action... taking pictures with our digital camera's to memorialize all the events...

Again, I tip my hat to you Patrick... even though I don't agree with you on this occasion... /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

18-35196-JDMFWDSigJFM.JPG
 
   / Prosecute the parents?
  • Thread Starter
#35  
Dan, Dan, Dan, Surely you can see the inapplicability of your first example. Yes that was an accident brougt on by lack of expoerience and the emotional state generated by the first contact with the kid and the going the wrong way. You would be amazed how many people push the wrong pedal in the car. When they don't get the desired outcome they push it harder. This puts a lot of people into the front of a mall shop. Funny thing no matter how hard you press the accelerator it doesn't become the brake. These are accidents. In my personal oppinion they are cause to test the person strenuously for fitness to operate a motor vehicle on the public roads.

Ok, In your example the driver did not set out to do anything intentionally wrong, dangerous, or stupid. In the case of the idiot with the kid in the loader bucket joy riding on the state highway, that is different. The kid did not get into the bucket by accident. The father was not UNAWARE of his being in the bucket. If (and this is a giant IF) if the kid got into the bucket and hid and his father did not see him nor had a history of the kid hiding in the bucket then I would be a lot more sympathetic with the cause of not charging him under the law. That however was very clearly NOT the case.

Sorry but your example is just not applicable. It is a real tear jerker but has nothing to do wilth the case at hand.

As far as your "instant reaction" to this accident(?) doesn't bear on the situation either. Don't confuse our loose use of the word accident with chance or probability. If while playing Russian roulette you blow your brains out, was it an accident? It wasn't a "sure thing" the hammer just accidently happened to come down on a loaded cylinder. Don't you agree that playing Russian roulette is patently dangerous and stupid and that if the guy had played Russian roulette with the kid's head and a gun and blown his brains out that he would have had the DA after him for more than community service and safety training?

Taking the kid for a joy ride in a skid steer loader bucket on the state highway, irrespective of any fun intentions, was just as dumb as playing Russian roulette with the kid would have been. What about child restraints for heaven's sake. If the child were killed in an auto accident while not in a restraint or seat belted that would be a clear violation of law and might result in criminal proceedings. So why does everyone want to condone a joy ride in a skid steer loader bucket on a state highway? The father had to afirmatively commit several blunders to cause this, Why are we afraid to call a spade a spade? I really think emotion is clouding judgement and no one wants to see themselves in a bad light for doing things with children that are as nearly stupid but haven't had their luck run out yet so they are wont to whistle in the dark!

I give, why wasn't grandmaw charged? I'm not imortal, just superhuman, but not allways omnicient. (or a very good speller) Surrely by now you must have noticed that laws are not always enforced uniformly.

Dan, I'm sorry that you and or your wife have difficulty taking the time to be "baby safe". It isn't easy, and the fact that we make it at all as a society growing our replacements, is amazing. I hope nothing bad happens but would encourage yo to asses risk from a couple directions. Severity of outcome and liklihood of occurence. Something bad that is likely to happen but the worst outcome isn't too severe can be priortized below something less likely to happen but results in an unacceptable outcome (death, dismemberment, maiming).

My best friend has only two thirds to three fourths of a trigger finger on his right hand (the Marines still drafted him for Viet Nam but I counselled him on how to get out of it). Seems his mom only turned her back for a couple seconds. He was at the just walking good age when he stuck his finger in the output side of the meat grinder in between the blades and his sister, a year older, turned the crank, just like mommy did. His mom jfigures she had her back turned for maybe 2 seconds to pick up something on the counter behind her. Do I think she should have been jailed, no! If she gave it to them to play with (see the joyride analogy forming) then I think the state should have considered charging her or deciding if she were a fit mother.

Yes, yes, people do stupid things all the time. Some of them are criminal and come of them aren't. Just because two things are stupid doesn't make them equal. There are degrees of disregard for safety (sometimes called stupidity, an overworked term) Society has enacted laws to protect itself from excessive and flagrant acts of disregard for safety of its members. The child in the loader bucket was a deserving member of society not a pet, not the parents property to do with as they please, not a critically evaluating member of society. Children are due, deserve, and should get special treatment by society. That is how child protective services steps in to protect a child's welfare when parents don't. Raising a child is difficult. they are accidents waiting to happen. They shouldn't be placed in jeopardy for any instant gratification motivation or layziness of yours or theirs.

I agree with you emphatically. You can't legislate intelligence or motivation. All we can do is provide legal recourse to try to mold members of society toward the behaviors society chooses to preserve and condone and provide degrees of punishment (state imposed negative outcomes) for behaviors that society wants to curtail. Surely no one on TBN thinks any law has ever stopped any crime absolutely. Laws and their administration, however flawed, are one of the civilizing influences we have to hold us back from the brink of chaos. If we let situationalistic emotions prevent their application then as a group we are backing off from civilization. There are ameliorating circumstances considered in many court room situations, most judges are not machines or machine like. Even prosecutors (not facing re-election soon) are human beings.

Ive been baraged with emotional commentary and innundated with inapplicable examples but no one has given a rational legal argument to sustain the "rightness" of taking a virtually defensless baby for a joyride in a skid steer bucket on a state highway. Until or unless that can be done then isn't a consequence of his criminal actions to be tried for them by law?

Better to light a single candle than to forever curse the darkness.

Patrick
 
   / Prosecute the parents?
  • Thread Starter
#36  
Ok, Grumpy. I take back the word "PARADE". His community service coulld still be safety lectures to parents.

Patrick
 
   / Prosecute the parents?
  • Thread Starter
#37  
Lets not confuse my oppinion of what should happen to the guy with my oppinion that the law should be followed. I might suggest great punishment but abide by the reasoned decision of the human prosecutor, judge, and any jury. that is why if I ran over your kid you wouldn't get to decide my punishment if any, the law would.

Best I can do via this medium. If we ever convened a large physical get together I bet we would have fewer disagreements and less unresolved differences.

Patrick
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #38  
(So why does everyone want to condone a joy ride in a skid steer loader bucket on a state highway? )

Patrick, where did anyone here condone this. Just one instance? No one did, except in your mind. You against the world? Only in your mind. Step back for a bit, take a deep breath, then let this go. Your statement is an insult to all who have posted on this thread.

I think you like to hear yourself talk, and this is why you have adopted this subject. In doing so, you have done an injustice to the tragedy. And comparing this to Russian roulette, geeze, that was a low blow.

Keep the greasy side down.
Mike<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mike_Dumond on 09/07/01 12:11 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #39  
Patrick,
What law did he break is what I'm failing to see? If he had been stopped by a police officer could he have been given a ticket for what he did? I don't think so. So how then is what he did criminal? Unfortunate, yes; something to learn from, definitely; but I fail to see where the criminality of the situation is? What law did he break? I'm not arguing with you so don't get defensive. I'm just trying to see the law that was broken here. In a very similiar case here two kids were riding in the back of a pickup truck. The Dad swerved to miss a cow and rolled the truck killing the two kids. Because there was no law against riding in the back of a pickup truck there were no charges that could be brought against him. Since then that county has made a law that you can't ride in the back of pickup trucks.

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
   / Prosecute the parents?
  • Thread Starter
#40  
Please Bird, Cut me some slack. I don't have time to launch into a paragraph of self deprecating humor and several annecdotes about my screwups to prove I'm only human and fully aware of the fact. The only people who do nothing wrong are the people who do nothing.

My 10 yrs in dealing with the boating public from the Coast Guard side of things was, at times, as frustrating, I'm sure. as your young patrolman days with regard to being rebuffed when making clearly needed safety suggestion to protect folks and their kids from clearly unsafe personal practices. "The gas tank is only leaking a litle bit", "we'll get this extinguisher looked at real soon now", and on and on.

I make no claim to being perfect, so I think your comment, ". I guess you're the only guy I know of who's never done one." is unwarranted, and very much in error.

I don't want to start a new thread "The most I ever screwed up was when..." but I can if you need proof that I can hold my own in that arena.

Given the laws in effect now regarding seatbelts and child restraints how do you lightly excuse anyone who places an innocent defensless child in a loader bucket on a skid steer and goes joy riding on the state highway.

Can you comment on that seriously with no reference to the guys self punishment, tears, etc., just your take on the legal ramifications, not the emotional ones? I really would like to know what you think regarding any violations of law. As a separate statement, you could comment on what you think of those laws. Are they needed. Strong enough, too strong, should they be selectively enforced?

A lot of readers here on TBN (myself definitely included) pay close attention to your comments and advice.

Patrick
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

John Deere 4510 (A53317)
John Deere 4510...
2011 SHOP MANIFOLD TRAILER (A58214)
2011 SHOP MANIFOLD...
DOOSAN G25KW GENERATOR (A55745)
DOOSAN G25KW...
1660 (A59213)
1660 (A59213)
25 DUAL AXLE GOOSENECK TRAILER (A55745)
25 DUAL AXLE...
500 BBL FRAC TANK (A58214)
500 BBL FRAC TANK...
 
Top