I like the idea of a 200 gallon tank of diesel but the problem is that at different times of the year the formulation changes. Here in the North that's a big deal as fuel can gel in the middle of the winter if it's a summer mix. I do use Power Products in my fuel but still I wonder. I did have fuel a few years ago start gelling in the float bowl.
PTO generator
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I like the idea of a 200 gallon tank of diesel but the problem is that at different times of the year the formulation changes. Here in the North that's a big deal as fuel can gel in the middle of the winter if it's a summer mix. I do use Power Products in my fuel but still I wonder. I did have fuel a few years ago start gelling in the float bowl.
The trouble with those things is that you become a slave to them. They never tell you about cleaning them, parts wear, how much wood you need to make them work, etc.
PV is still the best solution if you ask me, it's a field that will just continue to improve and now a company has exceeded the 33% efficiency ratio:
Solar panel breaks "third of a sun" efficiency barrier
Diesel can be stored for years if you keep moisture out as much as possible. An additive for fungus and to resist gelling is recommended. I have about 100 gal of heating oil for my kubota powered 10 KW genset. Sandy left us w/o power for about 70 hours. Ran the gen non stop on 1 yr old diesel with no problem. i also use the diesel for my tractor, but only fill about once a year. We sat in comfort and barely heard the genset running. 3 zones of geothermal heat pump worked flawlessly, as did the fridges, freezer, well, etc.
paul
My 50kw Winpower is no typo. It could punch out 50kw continuosly with the JD 4020. My F-935 is/was 22 hp when new. But, my demand is not 50kw, its probably less that 6kw. No matter, the F-935's motor can deliver enough kinetic energy for the Winpower to convert it to electricity for my use. If my demand was for a higher electric power than is equivalent to the 22 hp on the mower, then it would brown down. Or I could throw my JD 1070 back on (35 hp) and see if that's enough motor (18kw load). But the alternator is wired to handle the current equivalent of 50kw service in case I need to run a small town. Then I would need the 4020 (100 hp?) to deliver the equivalent engine hp.
When I bought the Winpower at a farm auction, all the buyers were told it would take 100+ hp to run it. But I was not going to dry corn, I wanted a furnace, well, lights, fridge, TV/radio and a battery charger. So I was the only one who bid after a lot of discussion and opinions by the know-it-alls : $600. I can still hear the auctioneer yelling: "SOLD. The auction is today folks!"
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sdkubota
Platinum Member
An excellent fuel additive is PRI-D. I have read their testimonials where diesel fuel over 10 years old tested as newly refined. It can also be added to old fuel to re-vitalize it says the maker. I just pourchased some off of Amazon...not cheap but only 1oz per 16 gallons of fuel is required. They also make a gasoline additive called PRI-G.
That's good to know. I have an empty 255 gallon oil tank that I can fill with off road diesel.
The problem with fuels is they do run out at some time. Let's say we have a real problem in ths country, look we just had a bad storm and people will be out for a week or more. So now I have a 100 gallons of reserve and let's say my power uses 1 gallon an hour, well that's only 100 hours, even a 250 gallon tank runs out in a little over 10 days and that's at 1 gallon an hour usage. Now I have to hope I can refill the tank at a wild card cost or my investment is a big paper weight.
The only way I can see it is if that was complimented with alternate energy. Next summer I'll have my microhydro in and my windmills. That with the PV means I run continuously without any fuel for a total outlay of 15 to 18K. That's what I want. I can see the point of temporary fuel tanks but that seems like band aid to me. I'm happy to have a back up tank to run my tractor but it's not something I can rely on for long term use. I want something that can go for several months regardless what happens with fuel. Relying on fuel scares me.
The only way I can see it is if that was complimented with alternate energy. Next summer I'll have my microhydro in and my windmills. That with the PV means I run continuously without any fuel for a total outlay of 15 to 18K. That's what I want. I can see the point of temporary fuel tanks but that seems like band aid to me. I'm happy to have a back up tank to run my tractor but it's not something I can rely on for long term use. I want something that can go for several months regardless what happens with fuel. Relying on fuel scares me.
sdkubota
Platinum Member
Rarely will you need to run a generator non-stop and in most instances hour on, hour off when requiring heat or cooling. Without the need for heating, 4 hours/day could keep your fridge and freezer working within required temps.
Yes, I understand what you're saying but the bottom line is a gen set relies on a variable commodity (fuel) with an unstable expense and availability. So lets say it runs 1 month on your fuel supply, now what do you do?
sdkubota
Platinum Member
Go Tarzan!
PineRidge
Super Member
I have always mixed an additive in the diesel whenever I purchase a new load. The additive prevents gelling and fungus. I have pumped and used the oil in the dead of winter and in the heat of summer without problems. Locally our oil delivery is Campbell Oil. I have never asked them but would suspect that they have a backup generator so they can continue to pump oil into their delivery trucks should a blackout happen. Perhaps if this is a point of interest you should discuss it with your local oil company.
Personally I think you are ahead of the game if you have a gen set and 200-300 gallons of oil to keep it working. Just be careful who you tell or you might have tents set up on your lawn in a power outage.
tommu56
Elite Member
One option is when you get a well pump pick one with little or no inrush.
Most well drillers don't have any idea of this or care about the inrush they want to sell you well with a pump in it more money in their pocket.
The grundfos pump I have at 450 ft starts and runs on a 3000 watt invertor with out batting a eye.
the quick rule of thumb if you got a cheap pump you will have a high inrush.
SQ | Grundfos
Most well drillers don't have any idea of this or care about the inrush they want to sell you well with a pump in it more money in their pocket.
The grundfos pump I have at 450 ft starts and runs on a 3000 watt invertor with out batting a eye.
the quick rule of thumb if you got a cheap pump you will have a high inrush.
SQ | Grundfos
I have always mixed an additive in the diesel whenever I purchase a new load. The additive prevents gelling and fungus. I have pumped and used the oil in the dead of winter and in the heat of summer without problems. Locally our oil delivery is Campbell Oil. I have never asked them but would suspect that they have a backup generator so they can continue to pump oil into their delivery trucks should a blackout happen. Perhaps if this is a point of interest you should discuss it with your local oil company.
Personally I think you are ahead of the game if you have a gen set and 200-300 gallons of oil to keep it working. Just be careful who you tell or you might have tents set up on your lawn in a power outage.
I'm not disagreeing with you, I have a diesel generator but I'm working towards complete autonomy too. I mix too, but I do know that the oil yuo get in the summer has less kero in it than the winter, they do change the mix seasonally.
What's the HP of the pump also inverters usually have 2 to 3 times overhead for several seconds. What make is yours, mine are Outback's and they have tremendous reserve, although I have 7.2kw run all day power from them without hitting the reserve.
SPYDERLK
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Im glad this is finally being straightened out. All motors draw locked rotor current at startup because the rotor is stationary at that time. This is a very short term event that you will need a peak holding meter or an oscilloscope setup to capture because the current drops quickly as the motor starts to turn and continues to drop until it reaches speed. It is on the order of 4x or more of full load current. If this current times the Voltage exceeds the gen rating the gen voltage will buckle immediately. If it drops too much a motor with load wont start. A well motor starts without load , but immediately begins to develop an increasing load as it speeds up. This situation allows reliable starts at only 3x and lets you get by on a smaller gen.
Also, but not in your post, any suggestion to use 746 input Watts as equivalent to a 1HP motor will mislead the unwary. Virtually all motors use more than 1KW per HP. Actually it is a very good motor that can achieve that efficiency. And, as above, even a lightly loaded 1HP will still exhibit the high locked rotor initial current 4x above nameplate. Should this cause gen V to buckle it will cause big problems with other motors that may be running. Refrig or AC compressors may stop and take down the system. Multiple motors running simultaneously and cycling on gen power are going to cause an issue with systems not having ample surge capacity. Thats why its so good to oversize the gen while sizing the engine to supply the running load. The gen doesnt buckle and inertia controls V drop thru the surges of startup loads.
larry
zoltanthegypsy
Gold Member
At our house, we end up on generator power for several days/weeks a year When we rebuilt our well and storage system we went with a Grundfos SQE variable-speed storage pump in part because of the lower generator load during start up. Here's what Grundfos says, FWIW. Sorry about the formatting.
11. Generator operation
It is safe to operate the SQ/SQE with a generator. The generator must be sized 50% above the P1 (input power) values of the pump. See the following table.
Motor [hp], Min.generator size [W], Recommended generator output [W]
0.5 1200 1500
0.75 1900 2500
1.0 2600 3200
1.5 2800 3500
[edit] Just noticed that tommu56 has already mentioned the Grundfos option. Sorry about the noise.
Z.
When we rebuilt our well and storage system we went with a Grundfos SQE variable-speed storage pump in part because of the lower generator load during start up. Here's what Grundfos says, FWIW. Sorry about the formatting.11. Generator operation
It is safe to operate the SQ/SQE with a generator. The generator must be sized 50% above the P1 (input power) values of the pump. See the following table.
Motor [hp], Min.generator size [W], Recommended generator output [W]
0.5 1200 1500
0.75 1900 2500
1.0 2600 3200
1.5 2800 3500
[edit] Just noticed that tommu56 has already mentioned the Grundfos option. Sorry about the noise.
Z.
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Congrats on the wise purchase. I'm still looking and trying to figure the most cost effective solution. Modern specs show that gensets are most fuel efficient at full load in terms of fuel consumed per kWhour of electricity produced. Just wondering if you have measured fuel consumption vs. load? At what point can we burn natural gas @$0.40/Therm and sell electricity back to the grid? What is the maintenance cost to run a big generator 24/7/365? Can a 100kW unit be maintained for $8760/year or $1 per hour? I know these are not "PTO" questions, just thinking, natural gas is darn cheap these days.
You will have trouble finding a genset that big that runs on NG. There are a few that use car engines, but you are mostly into diesel at that power. Unlikely that you will ever match the utility prices since they too are switching to NG at much higher efficiencies in generation.
paul
