PTO Pump

[bindian]

Ok guys, I ran my 6520 around 2250 rpm today. That BH cut through the sandy loam and clay like butter. It was sweet, but a long dig as it was a very large oak and had to dig down around 8 feet all the way around it. I kept having to turn down the swing speed know.
hugs, Brandi

 

[Dougster]

Ok guys, I ran my 6520 around 2250 rpm today. That BH cut through the sandy loam and clay like butter. It was sweet, but a long dig as it was a very large oak and had to dig down around 8 feet all the way around it. I kept having to turn down the swing speed now.
hugs, Brandi

So is the final verdict in? To PTO or not to PTO... that is the question! Or in your case... to possibly upgrade (after warranty runs out, of course!) to a monster 7520 pump. I've got to believe you are now well up into the 9-12 GPM range recommended by Bradco for the 509/511 backhoes. Can you live with working at that engine RPM? Did you put your earplugs in?

Your machine (The "Big Red Beast" - non-turbo version) is rated at 11.4 GPM. My machine (Now known as the "Half Red Beast" by comparison) is apparently now rated at 9.5 GPM. Exact engine RPMs corresponding to those two published ratings are still a point for debate. But I'm still thinking that I am a little shy of what the 509 could really do with flow at the higher end of that range and even more... approaching the reported bypass setpoint of 14 GPM. That's what my (currently oversized) gut is telling me.

Someday, I would love to try a 509 or 511 with a PTO pump installed... and I mean a good sized pump. Don't care if the bypass cracks open... I'd really like to know what this BH can do with some serious hydraulic flow.

Dougster

 

[Willman]

Someday, I would love to try a 509 or 511 with a PTO pump installed... and I mean a good sized pump. Don't care if the bypass cracks open... I'd really like to know what this BH can do with some serious hydraulic flow.

Dougster

I'll second that!

 

[bindian]

So is the final verdict in? To PTO or not to PTO... that is the question! Or in your case... to possibly upgrade (after warranty runs out, of course!) to a monster 7520 pump. I've got to believe you are now well up into the 9-12 GPM range recommended by Bradco for the 509/511 backhoes. Can you live with working at that engine RPM? Did you put your earplugs in?

Your machine (The "Big Red Beast" - non-turbo version) is rated at 11.4 GPM. My machine (Now known as the "Half Red Beast" by comparison) is apparently now rated at 9.5 GPM. Exact engine RPMs corresponding to those two published ratings are still a point for debate. But I'm still thinking that I am a little shy of what the 509 could really do with flow at the higher end of that range and even more... approaching the reported bypass setpoint of 14 GPM. That's what my (currently oversized) gut is telling me.

Someday, I would love to try a 509 or 511 with a PTO pump installed... and I mean a good sized pump. Don't care if the bypass cracks open... I'd really like to know what this BH can do with some serious hydraulic flow.

Dougster

Dougster,
It is not the noise, but all that heat coming up around the steering wheel. Not to mention after digging the big stump out last weekend, the cylinders were to hot to touch very long. For now, a pto pump or a pump oof of a 7520 is a low priority.
hugs, Brandi

 

[Dougster]

Dougster, It is not the noise, but all that heat coming up around the steering wheel. Not to mention after digging the big stump out last weekend, the cylinders were to hot to touch very long. For now, a pto pump or a pump off of a 7520 is a low priority.
hugs, Brandi

Sounds like you may be approaching the practical limit of what a removable, tractor attachment-type backhoe can do! You've got to start choosing smaller stumps! Or is it time to buy yourself a big yellow commercial backhoe???

Clearly, on your machine, a carefully selected PTO pump would enable you to reduce engine RPMs, engine noise and engine heat... but you could end up with a hot BH seat right over top of the PTO tank and pump. Some have complained about hot vapors... not sure I would like that. The 7520 pump upgrade would enable you to achieve the same higher flow (at lower engine RPMs) tending to solve the engine heat problem with no PTO pump nuisance issues. Of course, there *is* the new tractor warranty issue.

I guess I'd want to know how hot those hydraulic cylinders are really getting and whether it's a real problem or completely normal. Time to get an infrared temperature gun? And I've asked this before: Is a hydraulic oil cooler practical on a tractor?

Dougster

 

[Tim_in_IA]

Dougster,
It is not the noise, but all that heat coming up around the steering wheel. Not to mention after digging the big stump out last weekend, the cylinders were to hot to touch very long. For now, a pto pump or a pump oof of a 7520 is a low priority.
hugs, Brandi

they sell heat exchangers for hydraulic return lines. If you've checked everything else out, such as relief valves and new filters and fluid maybe it is time for plumbing a heat exchanger (radiator essentially) inline. Another option is adding a secondary hydraulic reservoir to boost hydraulic fluid capacity. This is supposed to keep it cooler as well as the oil has more time before reuse.

 

[BobG_in_VA]

You know, I thought you guys were paying attention when I mentioned that the PTO pump that comes with the Bradco 511 does a wonderful job at about 1200 engine rpms (don't need no stinkin' earplugs nor insulation from engine heat). I've had to turn down the swing knob to almost closed and I can still make it go pretty fast. Loam???What's that?? I live in VA where its either red clay or "green" clay--stuff is impervious to anything. Like I said, the PTO pump without any special stuff, using the Bradco setup (including the hydro oil tank) will give you all the power you can use at a very low engine rpm. I guess you can believe me or go get some other setup to your liking. NOTE: After about 2 hours of hard use the oil tank is about 100 or so degrees--so you won't be cookin' your butt anyway. BobG in VA

 

[Dougster]

You know, I thought you guys were paying attention when I mentioned that the PTO pump that comes with the Bradco 511 does a wonderful job at about 1200 engine rpms (don't need no stinkin' earplugs nor insulation from engine heat). I've had to turn down the swing knob to almost closed and I can still make it go pretty fast.

You did mention that... which confused the heck out of me, but only because I haven't a clue what pump model or pump specs we are talking about here. Not sure at what engine RPM your 540 RPM PTO actually hits 540 RPM... but I'm assuming it is around double the 1,200 RPMs you run the engine at to accommodate the 511 backhoe. That means the PTO pump is really turning at maybe 270 RPM to give you more than acceptable performance. Assuming this is putting you at the high end of the 9-12 GPM Bradco specified range... that means your PTO pump must be a ~24 GPM (or greater) rated pump at 540 RPM. This really wouldn't surprise me all that much... but I am not sure such a pump would work very well on my somewhat smaller 4110 given that at 270 PTO RPM I may not be producing enough net horsepower to smoothly run a hydraulic pump fully-loaded at 12 GPM.

The bottom line is that it would really help to know exactly what you are getting for a pump in that Bradco PTO pump kit.

Dougster

 

[bindian]

You know, I thought you guys were paying attention when I mentioned that the PTO pump that comes with the Bradco 511 does a wonderful job at about 1200 engine rpms (don't need no stinkin' earplugs nor insulation from engine heat). I've had to turn down the swing knob to almost closed and I can still make it go pretty fast. Loam???What's that?? I live in VA where its either red clay or "green" clay--stuff is impervious to anything. Like I said, the PTO pump without any special stuff, using the Bradco setup (including the hydro oil tank) will give you all the power you can use at a very low engine rpm. I guess you can believe me or go get some other setup to your liking. NOTE: After about 2 hours of hard use the oil tank is about 100 or so degrees--so you won't be cookin' your butt anyway. BobG in VA

Bob,
Loam or loamy soil is a mix of clay and sand. It packs good and holds more moisture to help it pack better than sand. But is easier to work than clay. It works great under contrete as a base or under gravel for a driveway
If I used the BH hot and heavy every day, I would look into cooler options. But right now, I need to finish my barn. Dougster has distracted me with talk of hydraulic thumbs and grapples. The rain is gone and now it is barn siding time.
hugs, Brandi

 

[BobG_in_VA]

You did mention that... which confused the heck out of me, but only because I haven't a clue what pump model or pump specs we are talking about here. Not sure at what engine RPM your 540 RPM PTO actually hits 540 RPM... but I'm assuming it is around double the 1,200 RPMs you run the engine at to accommodate the 511 backhoe. That means the PTO pump is really turning at maybe 270 RPM to give you more than acceptable performance. Assuming this is putting you at the high end of the 9-12 GPM Bradco specified range... that means your PTO pump must be a ~24 GPM (or greater) rated pump at 540 RPM. This really wouldn't surprise me all that much... but I am not sure such a pump would work very well on my somewhat smaller 4110 given that at 270 PTO RPM I may not be producing enough net horsepower to smoothly run a hydraulic pump fully-loaded at 12 GPM.

The bottom line is that it would really help to know exactly what you are getting for a pump in that Bradco PTO pump kit.

Dougster

The 6000 makes PTO speed at about 2050rpm. I understand from Bradco/Mahindra that the pump puts out about 14gal min. (hence the tank is sized for that...I think it took me about 13 gallons to fill it to the right level). Again I have the option to shift over to 1000PTO and lower the tractor rpm lower, but why bother, as the diesel needs some rpm to not lug. BobG in VA

 

[Dougster]

The 6000 makes PTO speed at about 2050rpm. I understand from Bradco/Mahindra that the pump puts out about 14gal min. (hence the tank is sized for that...I think it took me about 13 gallons to fill it to the right level). Again I have the option to shift over to 1000PTO and lower the tractor rpm lower, but why bother, as the diesel needs some rpm to not lug. BobG in VA

Hi Bob - Not sure what you mean when you say the pump puts out about 14 GPM minimum. Can you elaborate? It would help greatly to know what specific pump comes in that Mahindra/Bradco kit. Any nameplate data or owner's manual data or markings or other clues regarding what pump that is would be greatly appreciated!

Dougster

 

[Dougster]

But right now, I need to finish my barn. Dougster has distracted me with talk of hydraulic thumbs and grapples.

Oh yeah! Go and blame me!!!

My Bradco thumb cylinder kit is due to arrive in CT toward the end of next week. Depending on how soon I can get down there and then find a good deal on some 3/8" hydraulic lines & fittings... I expect to have it up and running in time for a job on the 25th!

Dougster

 

[Willman]

Oh yeah! Go and blame me!!!

My Bradco thumb cylinder kit is due to arrive in CT toward the end of next week. Depending on how soon I can get down there and then find a good deal on some 3/8" hydraulic lines & fittings... I expect to have it up and running in time for a job on the 25th!

Dougster

Post some pics of that hydro thumb setup when you get it all installed!

 

[Dougster]

Post some pics of that hydro thumb setup when you get it all installed!

Assuming it works... Absolutely!

If I mess up, you'll only get the text version!

Dougster

 

[BobG_in_VA]

Hi Bob - Not sure what you mean when you say the pump puts out about 14 GPM minimum. Can you elaborate? It would help greatly to know what specific pump comes in that Mahindra/Bradco kit. Any nameplate data or owner's manual data or markings or other clues regarding what pump that is would be greatly appreciated!

Dougster

Dude,,,,all I know is that it works and works well. My 6000 weighs in (with the BH on it) at somewhere around 11K lbs and I can move that sucka' all over the place with the BH if I want to....I'm not an engineer, nor do I play one on TV, so No, I can't really elaborate (grin). I just know it works fine with the set-up that came, since it was designed by Bradco to match up properly. I think I trust them to do that.....sorry about that. BobG in VA

 

[LarryRB]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I did the prototype Bradco/Mahindra PTO pump system for the 511, and an awesome set up it is,,, Hard to beat,

 

[Dougster]

Dude,,,,all I know is that it works and works well. My 6000 weighs in (with the BH on it) at somewhere around 11K lbs and I can move that sucka' all over the place with the BH if I want to....I'm not an engineer, nor do I play one on TV, so No, I can't really elaborate (grin). I just know it works fine with the set-up that came, since it was designed by Bradco to match up properly. I think I trust them to do that.....sorry about that. BobG in VA

No problem Bob. Just trying to get as much information about the Mahindra/Bradco offering as I possibly can. None of the dealers around here have one in stock... or even have the technical specs to review.

Regardless, I'm 99% convinced that I would go with a Prince HC-PTO-1AC (cast iron, rated: 21 GPM at 540 PTO RPM) and run it at ~360 PTO RPM (~1,700 Engine RPM) to achieve ~14 GPM flow (the full 509/511 bypass valve setpoint). The smaller Prince HC-PTO-3AC could work just as well (or possibly even better) using the 1,000 RPM PTO setting with a similar lower engine RPM.

Dougster

 

[BobG_in_VA]

Dougster, I put the BH on the 6000 on Saturday. My friend has about a 1 acre pond, and his driveway way is the dame over about 150 ft. of which the concrete/culverts (you could see 2 of them) were dry as the pond is down about a foot due to extreme dry weather here in VA. He had about a 10-12 inch maple (about 25 or so feet tall) growing out of the bank at the end of the concrete/culverts. He wanted it gone as I had told him that a rotted root on a dam will cause a leak eventually. I cut the maple down about 6 feet from the base (I stood on the top of the dam and cut it about eye level (going away from me--pls no comments on power saws I've been cutting pulpwood since I was 12).
I then stationed the Mahindra on the dam and tried to cut out the roots....no go. I repositioned the tractor/BH on the opposite side of the drainage from the tree (reaching across the 7 or so feet of creekbottom) to did out some roots. I tried this for about 10 minutes and realized I wasn't getting too far and was literally pulling the tractor down the slight incline with the power of the hoe. I got my bud to sit on the tractor seat and stomp the brakes while I tried. Nothin' doin' as it was wedged too close to the concrete abuttment.
About this time I looked over at my friend and said "I'm gonna try something diifferent"...I put the bucket (the 12" bucket) on top of the 6 ft stump, and started to rock it toward the tractor. After about 4 tries it started to give. I then pulled it over, breaking the root ball off--guess what? the root ball had grown out of and filled a 15" galvanized culvert, then spread out to the surrounding ground. Well, we got it done, pulled the root/stump away with the '57 Farmall, cleaned up the rest of the area with the BH, and found that there were 5 culverts on this dam....could only see 2 before....He mixed up some concrete and relaid the apron on the culverts. Sorry for the long post (and no pictures) but thought it newsworthy....Oh, never ran the 6000 at over 1200 rpm. BobG in VA

 

[Dougster]

Oh, never ran the 6000 at over 1200 rpm. BobG in VA

Interesting story Bob! Thanks for posting it! This proves what I've been saying all along! It's awfully nice to have all that horsepower, flow and weight behind that 511! Just wait 'til I win the lottery and get that nifty 7520!!!

Wish I could do the same with 3,000+ lbs less and at 1,200 RPM... but I'm thinking that 1,700 to 1,800 engine RPMs makes more sense as a BH operating target for my 41 HP rated engine. That's still gonna be a lot nicer than achieving ~9.5 GPM of flow at 2,500 RPM!

Dougster

 

[BobG_in_VA]

Interesting story Bob!
Wish I could do the same with 3,000+ lbs less and at 1,200 RPM... but I'm thinking that 1,700 to 1,800 engine RPMs makes more sense as a BH operating target for my 41 HP rated engine. That's still gonna be a lot nicer than achieving ~9.5 GPM of flow at 2,500 RPM!

Dougster

I've run the 6000 on 1000rpm PTO at about 1200rpm with this hoe as well. Don't like the idea that I may lug the engine down doing that so I stick with the 540PTO. I have run the hoe at about 1500rpm engine and it is somewhat more "responsive", but see no reason in running up against the bypass any more than I have to....just me I guess. Hey, you got your rear tires filled???If not you better....BobG in VA