Pumping a lot of water from basement sump what to do with it? Irrigation?

[Fuddy1952]

I know this sounds stupid, but it would seem to me the basement would be unusable. How difficult would it be to fill it in?

 

[rScotty]

Hey, I agree that it's not good to build a house with a basement in a high water table. However, that's the reality the OP has to deal with. He also has mentioned several times he has no slope. Flat flat flat property. French drains would do nothing for him.

MossRoad, I think you missed some of the postings and came to the wrong conclusion. The OP never said he has no slope; and he did not say that his land was completely flat.

What he said back in post #60 was, "The whole property drops 26 inches over 330ft back to front. Ditch is about 20-ish inches deep from grade".

That's not much, but it is enough to drain if the builder is careful and makes provision for keeping it cleared out. Drainage will happen even on a slope that small, but the flow rate won't be high enough to self-clean.
rScotty

 

[MossRoad]

MossRoad, I think you missed some of the postings and came to the wrong conclusion. The OP never said he has no slope; and he did not say that his land was completely flat.

What he said back in post #60 was, "The whole property drops 26 inches over 330ft back to front. Ditch is about 20-ish inches deep from grade".

That's not much, but it is enough to drain if the builder is careful and makes provision for keeping it cleared out. Drainage will happen even on a slope that small, but the flow rate won't be high enough to self-clean.
rScotty

It's not surface water that's his problem. The entire ground is completely full of water just below his surface. No french drain is going to divert a high water table 8' down to the bottom of his basement footer with only 26" of slope in 300'.

 

[Scrambler82]

If Mech1 puts in a drainage trench across the back of his house, from higher to lower on the property, deep enough to be lower than the floor of his basement, stone and pipe with cover blockage for material intervention, why wouldn't that take most of the water away... ? i.e. path of least resistance !

I had a similar water problem, but not as bad as Mech1's, during the spring thaws each year my crawl space 20 x 50 x 4 feet deep, would almost fill with water. Thanks to only the fact that one end was higher, where my furnace was, did I not lose the furnace, hot water heater and maybe my fuel tanks. I couldn't find the problem and pumped every spring with a small sump pump took enough away to save the important stuff but it was getting musty smelling.
I already had enough stone under the house and sides with piping, so I decided maybe it was the gutters, so I started digging the furthest away point, dug approximately two to three feet where I could, and WHAM-BAN, running water.
I am at 70 feet above sea level, on a slight high point of a downward hill with a very deep gorge on the back side of my house and enough stone under the house and floor to sink a battle ship, and I was confused as to how water could flow from the gorge side at three feet down... but it seem that it might be the problem.
I dug to three + feet, did the stone and pipe thing, covered it and Thank you God, no more water.
Even though the water flowed in that ares for who know how long and under my house for at least 10 years causing me a PITA situation, it was gone, and a little too easy but it is what it is.

So I keep saying the same thing, find the source/flow of the water, if you can dig a trench deep enough and see the water flow, then you should be able to divert some of it, maybe all of it.
Because of the volume of water being tossed around on this thread, I am thinking it may take more than what I did but it is possible to divert Mother Nature.

From the pictures, the backside of the house has higher land than the front or side, the backside needs to be excavated and determine what is going on. If the water IS coming UP instead of from the side, yes there is an even bigger problem but if you can get flow in a trench then you can do something about it.

The idea of filling in the basement... interesting, a little off the wall, but a lot of crushed stone, and a thick concrete cap, with pipes taking the overflow out one side to a tank system, where you can pump water for whatever you want... and if there is enough... you can even sell it until the owner of the Pond that is draining through your yard complains he isn't getting his share... LoL !

Mech1, Good Luck, this is a good hydraulics problem, another idea maybe but just thinking out loud, a local University can help, some school are always looking for a problem to solve.

 

[CincyFlyer]

It's not surface water that's his problem. The entire ground is completely full of water just below his surface. No french drain is going to divert a high water table 8' down to the bottom of his basement footer with only 26" of slope in 300'.

Yep. Where I live, you can hit water down a couple of feet most of the year! (Makes putting in decorative ponds a pain.)

 

[MossRoad]

If Mech1 puts in a drainage trench across the back of his house, from higher to lower on the property, deep enough to be lower than the floor of his basement, stone and pipe with cover blockage for material intervention, why wouldn't that take most of the water away... ? i.e. path of least resistance !
....

Because most likely it would be like putting a wall up in part of a lake. The water is everywhere. It's like that here in many places. Dig 3-4' down and you hit water. For miles and miles, all the way to the Indiana/Illinois border 80 miles away.

 

[rScotty]

You don't need to go all the way to the Indiana border. Just to somewhere that is lower than the start of the drainage trench..... and it doesn't have to be lower by much.

Most ground can be drained if you really want to. It does often require a ditch or underground drain across neighboring land to do so, but it help them too.

Drainage & irrigation ditches are important enough west of the Mississippi that there is a whole special section of water law. I don't know about the water laws east of the Mississippi - but the science of drainage still works the same.
rScotty

 

[MossRoad]

You don't need to go all the way to the Indiana border. Just to somewhere that is lower than the start of the drainage trench..... and it doesn't have to be lower by much.

Most ground can be drained if you really want to. It does often require a ditch or underground drain across neighboring land to do so, but it help them too.

Drainage & irrigation ditches are important enough west of the Mississippi that there is a whole special section of water law. I don't know about the water laws east of the Mississippi - but the science of drainage still works the same.
rScotty

You just don't seem to understand that if there's no place for the water to go, you can't drain it. It's that flat. They tried it with the grand kankakee marsh. It's been over a hundred years and the ground water is still 3-4' below the surface. There's only an 11' drop in elevation from the middle of Indiana to Kankakee, Illinois. You can't put basements on the flats. Not possible.

 

[herm0016]

about that pond....

my parents have a pond on their property and someone ran a drain off to the back, enough slope where they are, so no problem. this spring fed pond stay at the same level all the time? could that pipe or a pipe coming onto your property be from that pond? the water would have to go somewhere. the pond, if spring fed, should be filling up your area until it drains to a sea somewhere.

 

[Fuddy1952]

If Mech1 puts in a drainage trench across the back of his house, from higher to lower on the property, deep enough to be lower than the floor of his basement, stone and pipe with cover blockage for material intervention, why wouldn't that take most of the water away... ? i.e. path of least resistance !

I had a similar water problem, but not as bad as Mech1's, during the spring thaws each year my crawl space 20 x 50 x 4 feet deep, would almost fill with water. Thanks to only the fact that one end was higher, where my furnace was, did I not lose the furnace, hot water heater and maybe my fuel tanks. I couldn't find the problem and pumped every spring with a small sump pump took enough away to save the important stuff but it was getting musty smelling.
I already had enough stone under the house and sides with piping, so I decided maybe it was the gutters, so I started digging the furthest away point, dug approximately two to three feet where I could, and WHAM-BAN, running water.
I am at 70 feet above sea level, on a slight high point of a downward hill with a very deep gorge on the back side of my house and enough stone under the house and floor to sink a battle ship, and I was confused as to how water could flow from the gorge side at three feet down... but it seem that it might be the problem.
I dug to three + feet, did the stone and pipe thing, covered it and Thank you God, no more water.
Even though the water flowed in that ares for who know how long and under my house for at least 10 years causing me a PITA situation, it was gone, and a little too easy but it is what it is.

So I keep saying the same thing, find the source/flow of the water, if you can dig a trench deep enough and see the water flow, then you should be able to divert some of it, maybe all of it.
Because of the volume of water being tossed around on this thread, I am thinking it may take more than what I did but it is possible to divert Mother Nature.

From the pictures, the backside of the house has higher land than the front or side, the backside needs to be excavated and determine what is going on. If the water IS coming UP instead of from the side, yes there is an even bigger problem but if you can get flow in a trench then you can do something about it.

The idea of filling in the basement... interesting, a little off the wall, but a lot of crushed stone, and a thick concrete cap, with pipes taking the overflow out one side to a tank system, where you can pump water for whatever you want... and if there is enough... you can even sell it until the owner of the Pond that is draining through your yard complains he isn't getting his share... LoL !

Mech1, Good Luck, this is a good hydraulics problem, another idea maybe but just thinking out loud, a local University can help, some school are always looking for a problem to solve.

That's what I was thinking..."The idea of filling in the basement... interesting, a little off the wall, but a lot of crushed stone, and a thick concrete cap"
Curious what's in the basement? Problematic if laundry, furnace, etc. That would mean another, maybe small utility room addition.
I'm just thinking out loud if it were me, what I'd do.
Mom's house is concrete block on a concrete slab, Dad and Grandfather built in 1949. Never a problem.
Grandparents next door has basement, always had problems and it's on top of hill. Lots of mold/mildew.
In-laws house (wife sold it) had a half basement, on a hill but spring in back yard. Always had problems and mold.
That's why I bought my house 40 years ago, cinder block on slab, one section a crawl space but no problems.
What's interesting is we have friends who live out west in the desert...like 1" rain annually. I asked about a basement...they asked what is that!?! A basement in desert would be ideal.

 

[rScotty]

about that pond....

my parents have a pond on their property and someone ran a drain off to the back, enough slope where they are, so no problem. this spring fed pond stay at the same level all the time? could that pipe or a pipe coming onto your property be from that pond? the water would have to go somewhere. the pond, if spring fed, should be filling up your area until it drains to a sea somewhere.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. If the ground is higher than sea level then the land can be drained....period. That's why ditches drain into creeks, creeks to rivers, and then to the sea. It doesn't mean it will be easy, and it could take a ong ditch to get to good drainage, but since the ditch will necessarily take the low path it would benefit most everyone along the way.

The ancients did it; so can we. And until it gets done there's always pumps that can be bought and companies willing to sell energy.
rScotty

 

[MossRoad]

That's exactly what I'm thinking. If the ground is higher than sea level then the land can be drained....period. That's why ditches drain into creeks, creeks to rivers, and then to the sea. It doesn't mean it will be easy, and it could take a ong ditch to get to good drainage, but since the ditch will necessarily take the low path it would benefit most everyone along the way.

The ancients did it; so can we. And until it gets done there's always pumps that can be bought and companies willing to sell energy.
rScotty

There's a huge movement to remove the drainage channels that were dug 100 years ago and put the rivers back to their natural courses. The constant flooding of farmland along these ditches is directly caused by the removal and drainage of natural wetlands.

Read this...

https://www.fieldmuseum.org/sites/d...ankakee Marsh Restoration Project Summary.pdf

 

[MechE1]

I like the idea of the shallow well. Thinking on that one and trying to find a solution to remove unwanted water and freezing issues.

Pond/drain tile - I had thought about that, and that sounds like the most legit reasoning behind all the water. But, I don't want assume anything. If it is not that, it is ground water.

I'm going to do some bore holes and fill testing/emptying along the east side. If I were to do a shallow well there, I have a bunch of runoff in that area. I think I would need to have the well casing 12-18" above grade to prevent filling from runoff. At least that's what I'm reading should be done. Nice and sealed up to prevent any contamination.

 

[MossRoad]

I like the idea of the shallow well. Thinking on that one and trying to find a solution to remove unwanted water and freezing issues.

Pond/drain tile - I had thought about that, and that sounds like the most legit reasoning behind all the water. But, I don't want assume anything. If it is not that, it is ground water.

I'm going to do some bore holes and fill testing/emptying along the east side. If I were to do a shallow well there, I have a bunch of runoff in that area. I think I would need to have the well casing 12-18" above grade to prevent filling from runoff. At least that's what I'm reading should be done. Nice and sealed up to prevent any contamination.

A shallow well for irrigation won't be tied into your potable water for your drinking, so contamination for drinking water won't be a problem. It is a way for chemicals to get into the aquifer. But if the water table is that high anyway, and there's ponds and ditches around, a shallow well is probably the least concern for point of entry for chemicals.

Good luck with your project. :thumbsup:

 

[rScotty]

I like the idea of the shallow well. Thinking on that one and trying to find a solution to remove unwanted water and freezing issues.

Pond/drain tile - I had thought about that, and that sounds like the most legit reasoning behind all the water. But, I don't want assume anything. If it is not that, it is ground water.

I'm going to do some bore holes and fill testing/emptying along the east side. If I were to do a shallow well there, I have a bunch of runoff in that area. I think I would need to have the well casing 12-18" above grade to prevent filling from runoff. At least that's what I'm reading should be done. Nice and sealed up to prevent any contamination.

Right after the flood here, I designed a number of simple shallow de-watering wells that several agencies still use. It's a deliberately simple and inexpensive design for disaster areas, but has proven very durable. I'll explain it in detail and you might want to use it or some version of the same idea.

MATERIALS FOR A SIMPLE SHALLOW WELL:
The most basic version uses three ten foot sections of 4" diameter PVC pipe all glued into a single central T connector to form an a PVC "T". The two opposing legs are capped and many holes drilled into them to allow the water to flow in. These opposing legs are then covered with 10 foot lengths of corrugated&perforated 6" black drain pipe which is in turn covered with a soil sock or geotextile wrap.
The well's vertical upright "casing" is not perforated.

I originally chose these sizes because all the materials are available at Home Depot for about $100 total, and the size is adequate for either a a submersible or suction pump. The inflow rate will vary with the water table of course. The original sized above was designed for use in sandy soil or flood debris with a 6 foot deep water table and a draw of 15 gallon/minute.

However, any well is improved if the vertical leg is a larger diameter, and this one is no exception. If larger pipe is available, consider making the vertical leg from 6" diameter PVC. A standard 4" to 6" adapter can be used so that the inexpensive and readily available 4" "T" can still be used. Remember, the well's vertical upright leg is NOT perforated.

INSTALLING THE SIMPLE SHALLOW WELL:
To install the well, a backhoe digs a 25 to 30 foot long by ten foot deep slot style hole in the ground, and the inverted PVC "T" is lowered into the slot until the horizontal legs are resting on the bottom. Use ropes as slings to support the horizontal legs while lowering. After this well T is in position, six to twelve inches of clean gravel is dumped into the slot right on top of the horizontal legs and the slot then backfilled using native soil. The vertical leg can be extended above ground with a collar if extra height is needed.
That's all there is to the well itself.

PUMPING A SHALLOW WELL:
To pump from this well - or any shallow well - use either an above ground suction pump or a small diameter submersible well pump. Which one is used may depend on the the flow rate of the well.

A simple 1/2 to 1 hp suction pump is what most people use to start or to prove the well flow rate, although at least one of the wells locally has enough flow for a standard submersible well pump to run continuously. Hardware store 110v suction pumps are less expensive and easiest to install, but are lower flow and pressure than submersible well pumps.
To feed a suction type pump, a length of 1.5" to to 2" diameter suction hose with a filter on the end is dropped down the vertical leg of the well and connected to the pump above ground. Suction pumps usually need to be primed before they are run, and then are run continuously. To help with initial priming and then to maintain prime when the pump is turned off, I like to put a PVC ball valve between the pump and the suction hose. A one-way "flapper" valve can also be used. Or both.

Submersible well pumps are more efficient and offer much higher flow and pressure. Submersible well pumps are lowered directly into the vertical leg of the well and pump up to the surface via a 1.25" dia. PVC pipe. This type of pump is high flow, but they also cost more initially and most (not all) also require 220v, a controller, and pressure tank.

Good luck!
rScotty

 

[CADplans]

Another thought,,,
if the water table is that high,, use the water to operate a water to air heat pump,,

Surely 25K gallons a day are enough to feed a water to air heat pump,,
my nephew dug two deep wells to get enough water to supply the two water to air heat pumps that air condition his home,,

If you do not want to pump the water out of the ground, dig a trench, drop in a plastic coil of pipe, and have the most efficient water to air heat pump possible.
That plastic pipe sitting in water will transfer heat better than ANYTHING,,, :thumbsup:

 

[ruffdog]

There are small lakes near me that are very high now. Researcher's from Madison can't figure it out either. They flooded with all the rains in 2008 and stayed high for 4 more years. Now it is even worse. Other than pumping a huge amount of water 2 miles to the river, they sit in the bathtub. One house that has been in the family 4 generations is very close to be the next to be tore down. If mother nature turns your area into a swamp, you can't win.

 

[rScotty]

There are small lakes near me that are very high now. Researcher's from Madison can't figure it out either. They flooded with all the rains in 2008 and stayed high for 4 more years. Now it is even worse. Other than pumping a huge amount of water 2 miles to the river, they sit in the bathtub. One house that has been in the family 4 generations is very close to be the next to be tore down. If mother nature turns your area into a swamp, you can't win.

The researchers must have some theories. It seems that researchers are never at a loss for explanations; it's choosing a single one that they have problems with.
Have you talked with them? I wonder what ideas they are kicking around.

We've noticed the same thing where we live. The big flood here was 6 years ago, but the ground water is still a lot higher than it used to be.
rScotty
rScotty

 

[ruffdog]

The researchers must have some theories. It seems that researchers are never at a loss for explanations; it's choosing a single one that they have problems with.
Have you talked with them? I wonder what ideas they are kicking around.

No, didn't talk to them but the issue has been in the local papers. Just too wet..........

 

[texas42]

I like the idea of the shallow well. Thinking on that one and trying to find a solution to remove unwanted water and freezing issues.

Pond/drain tile - I had thought about that, and that sounds like the most legit reasoning behind all the water. But, I don't want assume anything. If it is not that, it is ground

I'm going to do some bore holes and fill testing/emptying along the east side. If I were to do a shallow well there, I have a bunch of runoff in that area. I think I would need to have the well casing 12-18" above grade to prevent filling from runoff. At least that's what I'm reading should be done. Nice and sealed up to prevent any contamination.

Google wellpoints - they are shallow wells spaced close to each other. Might give you some ideas.