Purchase Grand L Ten or M Series? Need help...

[mikeslavis]

All,

I'll try to keep this as short as possible, and THANKS in advance for any help...usual disclaimers apply (been lurking for a few months, reading posts, ready to buy tractor at this point, suburbanite moving to the country w/minimal tractor experience, etc..etc..).

The specifics: Moving to hobby farm, 90 acres in Rochester, NY area November 1. 60 acres of flat Fields currently rented to local farmers plus 15 acres woods plus 15 acres pasture with 2 ponds. My wife and I most interested in tree farming, with the intent of converting the fields back to forest over time and eventually running a nursery there (We're both 8-to-5'ers right now). We'll need the tractor for the following: Snow plowing, tilling, moving dirt, spading trees, chipping/splitting wood, skidding logs, mowing lawn, digging/grading and possibly for sowing/spraying as well (down the road a bit). We'd like the tractor to be able to handle these chores easily, and also would like an enclosed Cab (it gets both very cold and very hot here, plus wife allergic to bees). Initial implements would most likely be an FEL and box scraper with a rear-PTO-driven mower in the spring.

This leads me to the Grand L Ten series L3710, L4310 and L4610 as well as the M4900, M5700. And this is where I need some help, because my ignorance begins to show. Here's what I know are the MAJOR differences between the L- and M-series:

L-series is compact tractor equipped with Cat I 3-point hitch.
M-Series is utility/ag tractor equipped with Cat I/II 3-point hitch.
What implements will work only on Cat II hitches? Is it matter of size only, or are there entire classes of implements that won't work on a Cat I hitch that I may eventually need? In particular I'm worried about a discing implement and a tree spade, along with the big "batwing" mowers. Hopefully someone with experience will know something...

L-series has HST available.
M-series does not.
I've come to appreciate the values of HST from posts by all of you here, and think I will "miss" the HST if I go with an M-series. Am I missing anything here? Is there any reason a "standard" geared-trasmission would be "better" for the kind of work I'm looking to do, or would I be better served by an HST, specifically?

L3710 has mid-mount PTO.
No other models I'm considering do.
This means I could attach a MMM or Snowblower to the L3710 (most interested in the snowblower). Does anyone have any experience with how well the snowblower works? (I've seen posts on the rather disliked MMM, so I'm not really planning on using it - especially since I'll be going with Ag or Industrial tires). I may not need the Snowblower if it plows really well, has anyone ever used the FEL for plowing and how well does that work (pushing the snow instead of redirecting it)?

Obviously the M-series is bigger/more power/more capacity/more expensive, and I'm just not sure if the L-series has enough power for what I'm looking to do. I always hear "buy the biggest tractor you can afford", and the M is a bit more than I can afford, but I will "stretch" things a bit if it gives me Way increased benefit over the Grand L.

The PTO HP on the "lowest" vs. "Highest" on my Kubota list is 30 on the L3710HSTC vs. 52 on the M5700. The price differential (From Carver - Tractor only!) is $22,000 for the L3710HSTC vs. $26,000 for the M5700, with the other models in-between. I haven't contacted Mr. Carver yet because I wanted to get some feedback from you, and visit my local dealer first.

Sorry about the length!

Mike Slavis
mike@slavis.com

 

[SmokyMtnMan]

Well, I'm sure going to be watching this post in next few days! Sounds like you and I are at same point in decision making with same models in consideration. Of course, I wouldn't know what to do with all that flat land you show there. Must be nice.
You may want to view my post also to get some ideas.."Ready to purchase...etc"

you get more snow than i do here so that snowblower/mid-mount decsion might be more of a factor up there.....but here I can get by with a blade I think.....other than that our decision-making process is going to be similar...

they almost had me going with the 4610HST with cab...until I got to thinking about the M-4900....I went to dealer yesterday and noticed there's quite a bit of difference in ground clearance and rear tire size on the two with M series being much higher off ground and tires much taller to me...
not sure if the cab on the M's are different from Grand L's though
good luck

 

[mikeslavis]

SmokyMtnMan,

Ha! I've been following your post but decided to post my own since yours dealt solely with the Grand L Series tractors. Sounds like you're pushing to the bigger M now as well. I'm just trying to weigh it all out and figure if I need to spend the extra money or can get by with the Grand L (and the HST).

I'm hoping some here can answer the questions I've posted, a big difference between Grand L and M-series is that the Grand L is the "biggest" of the "compact" tractors and the M is the "smallest" of the "utility/ag" tractors (hence, I believe, the Cat I vs. Cat I/II hitches on the machines). Since this is a compact tractor group they may not know much about the M series, but I figured I'd ask anyway since I know so little myself.

I'll keep you posted on where I'm going after I visit my dealer here and get responses to the post.

Thanks!
Mike Slavis
mike@slavis.com

 

[Bird]

Mike & SmokyMtnMan, I assume you have both gone to Kubota's web site at http://www.kubota.com and looked at the specs and other information they have there. Moving up to the M series gets you a 5 cylinder engine in a bigger tractor that's made more for farming and commercial use. I happen to like the convenience of an HST transmission which is not available in the M series yet; however, I've actually put more hours on geared tractors than with an HST, so if you don't mind that, and the extra cost, I'd naturally recommend you move on up to the M series. And while I have NO hours experience in operating the bigger Kubotas, I have climbed up in the cab of several of the L and M series with cabs up to and including the M120; just sat there and drooled on the steering wheel. Really nice cabs in my opinion!

Bird

 

[hayden]

It's kind of odd, but the M4900 and M5700 are 5 cylinders, but the M6800, M8200, and M9000 drop back down to 4 cylinders.

Same thing happens with the B/L series. The B7500 and B2410 are 3 cyl, the 2710 and 2910 are 4, then the L 3010 and 3410 drop back to 3 cyl, then it goes back to 4 for the L3710, 4310, and 4610.

Go figure.

 

[hayden]

Keep in mind that with a front snow blower you have to remove the loader. With a rear blower you can keep the loader on and use both without having the change implements. I find this very usefull. The rear facing blower isn't bad once you get used to it. I've learned to sit kind of side saddle.

 

[gordon]

Now that is one tough decision. I was going down the same road a while back and the decision factor had alot to do with the trans. I would have a M series right now if it had a HST as an option. But here are a few more problems you might want to consider in the decision process.

What type of tree planting will you be doing? You will have to plan your rows according to how wide the tractor is. Also the larger implements are class II they are built heavier than most class I. For snow removal the front end loader will move snow but you will find it's a pain to push snow with it.

Bottom line the larger the tractor the quicker you can get things done. The larger tractor also has a larger turning radius. The larger tractor has more hp. So you will have to weigh out how much the HST means to you. Both the L and the M are very nice tractors. Best thing if possible try and test drive both to see the differences.

Gordon

 

[frank_f15]

mike: seems to me u are not going to be able to get one tractor to excel in all u want to do.a tractor big enough to skid and split logs and plow ground is not going to be an ideal lawn cutter. i think u need to stay in the upper l"s or lower m models. i personally like the hst and being i am from your area (20 mi south of buffalo) i am personally familar with the weather. i use my fel and a back blade for moving snow, a front blower is nice , but then u loose the fel. btw my youngest daughter lives in MACEDON(north of pennfied) and a good friend lives in north chili. get up that way often. i think u have a tough call /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[JJT]

I also live in the NYS snow belt, I have the L3710 w/ 78" rear blower. I could not clear my 800' driver with the FEL, the blower is actually quicker than my previous 4x4 pickup/plow. I could not live w/o the HST, there are times I would like a little more HP, but things work out by slowing down, (6' brush hog with a steady diet of 1 - 2" hardwoood saplings or breaking virgin ground with the 6' tiller....). Annually I hay 50 acres and brush hog another 25 acres of pasture and another 25 acres of reclaimation work. I'd love to have the grand L cab, but cannot justify the $. The Carharts work just fine. If your wife is going to use the tractor then HST's the only way to go.

 

[Gatorboy]

Mike,

I currently have an M8950 with 7700 hours on it, and if I were to buy a new tractor today, I would consider the M5700, but nothing smaller. Not having HST would not bother me in the least. I run a 15' flexwing with a pull-type hitch, and it cuts nearly as well as a finish mower. With the amount of land you will most likely need to mow, I would suggest a nice Rhino Flexwing as well.



I have planted 400 seedlings (pines & oaks) and to cut around those -- as well as for my future lawn around my future home -- I have bought a 48" Scag walk-behind. And with this mower, I challenge any compact tractor owner with a 60" deck or less to a lawn cutting contest. I would smoke'em.



The M-Series tractors may seem "big" when you look at them on the dealer's lot, but let me assure you, once you run one for a few hours, you will not think of it as "big", but just another tractor.

The one thing to be aware of, is the more HP you have, the bigger attachments you will need -- which will cost more.

You are not going to find the "perfect" solution from any one person, but hopefully you can digest the thoughts of others and come up with a good decision for yourself.

Good Luck!

<font color=blue>Note: If you cannot see the pictures within this post, click on the "X" where the picture should be and it will take you to my Photo Album of that picture.</font color=blue>



Regards,
Dave "Gatorboy" Hoffmann
Fallston, Maryland

 

[Harv]

<font color=blue>The M-Series tractors may seem "big"</font color=blue>

Holy Moly, Dave!!! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

You could run over my li'l L with that monster and probably not even notice. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Cool! /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

 

[glennmac]

Mike, it sounds like you are not going to be doing any serious dirt-engaging farming work. Based on that assumption, and my strong bias toward HST, I think you can do all the non-tree-farm work with a 4610. You can pull a batwing with it or a 7' brushcutter. You can also mow a lawn with a smaller 3ph mower. You might want to invest in Michelin XM27's, which should be great in snow, and a 4n1 bucket.

But you might want to think about having a second machine also, and I suggest that you look at a skidsteer. The first reason I suggest this is because a cab may be incompatible with a backhoe--we have had agonizing about this here--and I think you will need a backhoe for your tree farming work. I suggest the skidsteer because it may have attachments more suited to tree farming chores. All of the big tree farms that I have seen use them. Dig holes with the hoe, carry rootballs with forks, adjust the ball in the hole with forks, move the dirt with a bucket. These attachemts go on and off the bobcat in a matter of seconds. The skidsteers may also have better spading attachments than tractors do.

I dont own any of this kind of equipment myself, but I'm just trying to add some thoughts.

 

[mikeslavis]

Everyone,

Thanks for the words so far. You've given me lots to digest, and I'm hoping to go to the Kubota dealer today to get up close and personal with these machines, so maybe that'll help me out a bit. I'll try to cover some of the things you've said that really have me thinking now...

Bird, I don't think I'd have a problem with a geared transmission, just that I'd prefer HST. It sounds like you think the cabs of both Grand L and M series are good, so I'll try to check them both out and see if I can find any glaring differences between them.

hayden, that is odd about the cylinders, but the 4 cylinder M6800, M8200, and M9000 have more displacement than the 5 cylinder in the M4900 and M5700, meaning they'll produce more torque/power even though there's one less cylinder (although they probably won't be as efficient on gas). I hadn't given much thought to a rear blower, but I'll keep in mind that it doesn't sound like you lose productivity over a front blower AND you get to keep the FEL on.

gordon, my wife and I realized our rows would be dependent on the tractor size, and we even took a quick peek at the skinny "vineyard' tractors, but they're all $$$$$. We are keeping this in mind and it's one reason I want to get the tractor BEFORE we start doing some major planting. I realize class II handles the larger implements, but was wondering if anyone knew of an implements that you COULDN'T use with class I for the typ of stuff I'm doing. It doesn't sound like it so far, so my worries on this one are subsiding. It sounds more like I'll just need to run a 6' discer instead of a 12' discer (If I ever need to disc the land, that is). I'm hoping to visit the dealer today for a look-see and maybe schedule a test drive.

frank_f15, good points. I'm not looking for a real "Finished" look to the lawn, though, just wanting to keep the brush down. Pits from the tires of a large tractor aren't that big a deal to me. I'm glad to hear you can get by using the FEL with a back blade for snow and I'm leaning less toward the front mounted snow blower now based on previous comments. I'm in Pittsford right now and the farm is in Hopewell (right next to Canandaigua).

JJT, this reassures me that a rear snow blower will do what I need. Right now I have a 200' driveway to keep clear, but I may eventually want to keep the main laneway through the land clear as well and this is over 1000' (We'll see how much work this is first, though! ). It's good to know that your L3710 can handle saplings and a 6' tiller. This is definitely the kind of feedback I'm looking for...if I went with the bigger L4xxx maybe the HP issue would go away? You've got around the same size land to tend that I do, so at least I know the Grand L is not "too small" a tractor to handle this...and that's good. My wife is pretty good with machinery and I think she could handle a geared tractor (unless the clutch takes, like, hundreds of punds of force to depress). I'm thinking HST would be easier for both of us!

gatorboy, thanks for the Rhino Flexwing tip. I'll look into this for sure. I saw your pictures - very nice - and have thought that we'll maybe need to add some "specialty" mowers and things like that in the future, but right now I'm looking to get the one machine that "best" covers present and future needs. I was originally looking at New Holland TN-series tractors, but they're prohibitively expensive for our budget, so I started looking at the Grand Ls, and now I'm also considering the Ms. Also, I could still run the smaller attachments on a bigger tractor if I wanted to, right? It'd just be a matter of under-utilizing the tractor's potential.

Harv, Ha! I wish I could get away a smaller tractor, it would save me $$$$$.

glennmac, Thanks for the reassurance that the 4610 could handle almost all the work. I'm going to look into this deeper today at the dealer. I have been considering a 4n1 bucket as well to server many functions. On the skid steer - I actually was hoping to get a skid steer INSTEAD of a tractor when I first started looking, because it'll do everything that I want except 1 VERY important function - Mowing. Those front-mounted skid steer mowers aren't very big and I'll bet mowing with a Skid Steer isn't very efficient. My plan morphed into getting a Tractor for now and thinking about a Skid Steer later. I *wish* I had the $ to get both, but have to settle for one for now. I have also contacted tree spade manufacturers and they ALL recommended Skid Steers for their products. We're hoping in 10 years or so when our trees are of spadable size, we'll re-visit getting a skid steer.

Thanks again all, and I'll try to post new questions later after I visit the dealer (I'm sure I'll think of something right as I drive away! ).

Mike Slavis
mike@slavis.com

 

[cowboydoc]

Mike,
Speaking from firsthand experience doing what you want to do on that big of an operation you need the M series IF that is going to be the only tractor that you are going to use. YOU WILL be very limited on alot of the higher end implements that you can use with only a cat.1 implement tractor. I'm fortunate in that I have a large tractor- 90 horse cat 3, a compact- JD 4600, and skidsteer. BUT if I could only have one of them I would have to take the large tractor. The reason is that I could do everything I needed with the large tractor that the smaller one and skidsteer would do but not vice versa. For what you want to do only having the smaller tractor will limit you. Like Bird said HST is nice but certainly you won't miss it much after you get used to running your tractor. I can pretty much guarantee you you will regret not having the bigger tractor. Like Gatorboy said he pulls a 15' batwing with that tractor of his. That will be a no go with a smaller one and you will be stuck mowing with a 7' one. That takes alot more time. Also think of hydraulics. With the smaller tractor if you ever want to get some of the higher end tree implements that will also be a no go with the smaller tractor as you won't have the hydraulics to run alot of them. Go with the cat I and II and you will have a much greater variety as far as to what you can do and accomplish. Don't limit yourself. You're talking about way too big of an operation to be cut yourself short.

 

[Bird]

Mike, the more this is discussed, and with all the things you want to do and implements you want to use, the more I agree with Cowboydoc, that you'll be better off to forget the HST and just consider the M series tractors.

I really like my HST; never liked doing so much clutching and shifting to change speeds and/or directions, but nowadays with synchromesh transmissions, shuttle shift, etc., I might like them a lot better. Those are two things I never had on any tractors I used. Of course, if you go big enough in the M series, there is a powershift transmission available./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I've never used a Kubota with powershift, but I've done just a tiny bit of hay baling in an air-conditioned Deere with powershift. Sure was nice.

Bird

 

[glennmac]

Well, I am really out my experience in discussing utility tractors, but let me review some of the assumptions I am making about Mike's situation. He has 90 acres, of which he leases out 60. That leaves him with 30. 15 of those are woods, in which he may do no tractor chores on a regular basis. That leaves the 15 acres he calls pasture and fields. He says he wants to let part of that return to forest. The rest he wants to maintain and tree farm.

So, I'm making an assumption, which could be all wrong, that he will effectively be tractoring no more than 15 acres. I'm further assuming he will not be doing any heavy duty power agricultural chores on that 15 acres such as plowing or haying/baling. Under these assumptions, I believe an HST Grand L is sufficient.

A couple of clarifications. I said a 4610 can pull a 15' batwing. I was referring to a finish mower batwing, and using Mike Reeter's rig as my example. I think Gatorboy's batwing is a brush cutter, so a 4610 may be too small to power that. Finally, I have heard that Kubota is going to add HST to some of the M series, but I dont know any details as yet.

 

[cowboydoc]

. My wife and I most interested in tree farming, with the intent of converting the fields back to forest over time and eventually running a nursery there (We're both 8-to-5'ers right now). We'll need the tractor for the following: Snow plowing, tilling, moving dirt, spading trees, chipping/splitting wood, skidding logs, mowing lawn, digging/grading and possibly for sowing/spraying as well (down the road a bit). We'd like the tractor to be able to handle these chores easily, and also would like an enclosed Cab (it gets both very cold and very hot here, plus wife allergic to bees). Initial implements would most likely be an FEL and box scraper with a rear-PTO-driven mower in the spring.


Glenn,
Yea it's hard to say exactly. I got the impression he was going to be converting the 90 acres back to forest. He mentioned spading for trees and I know that takes a big tractor. Also to prepare the soil it's going to have to be disced, plowed, etc. which is going to take a big tractor. Also skidding logs takes a big tractor as well to do it easily as he mentioned. Then after the trees are planted you need to mow all of that and I doubt it's going to be finish material. Digging, spraying, grading, etc. would also be easier with a bigger tractor as well IF he's going to be doing 90 acres worth. Then he had said that he wanted to do everything easily. 30 acres yea you'd probably be right except for the spade issue. 90 acres I'd say much bigger tractor. So based on the info. above I would say we both could be right.

 

[Von]

Re: Purchase Grand L Ten or M Series? Need help..

Mike,
Welcome to TBN. As a neighbor (I live in Fairport, and my Antique shop Is in Victor) I wish I could help with your problem, but I only know about the smaller tractors. I do know that you will need to shop around to get a good deal, local dealer near here was $3k higher than carver for a B2710 and thats before sales tax! Plus was $400 over list price for a Curtis cab for my tractor, Whites near Syracuse was about $300 under list! Art White has good prices and is not too far away from us, so it would be worth giving him a call or email for a quote when you figure out what you want. Good luck on your search.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Mike,

About 2 years ago, I got pricing on the M6800 MFWD for around $21k w/o cab, assuming another $4k for cab would put you at your upper budget limit of $26k...

With 62 PTO hp, and fully syncro trans., this Kubota should handle all 90 acres and then some...

With the amount of land you have and the potential work you'll generate over the next 20 years, and the slight difference in initial cost today {$4-6K}, I wouldn't even consider an "L" series... minimum PTO hp I would look for would be no less than 50 and for a couple dollars more the M6800 w/cab and loader & 62 PTO hp should serve you and your wife for many many years into the future with only smiles on your faces and no regrets...

 

[glennmac]

Richard, I agree. As always, it will depend on how big a real area he wants to work (sometimes people underestimate or overestimate), what exactly are the important chores (sometimes its hard to foresee and prioritize), and how fast he wants to do it all. I think we all agree that, when in doubt, bigger is better.

I, too, am interested in planting and tree farming when I get my land cleared and dried out. I have lots of books on trees, and sometimes throw around the Latin names. The spading issued concerned me, too, so that is why I suggested a skidsteer. I really havent gotten to the point where I have researched tree planting, excavating and moving implements.