Question?

[jasimpson]

Rutwad,


I looked online at the ASV website at the RC100. The machine has 100 engine horsepower but they only claim to have 73 hydraulic horsepower. We demoed the case with the bradco XL 165-5 and seemed to run great. The BIC super HY-FLOW hydraulic system is a add on for case above and beyond standard hy-flow options. We talked with all the mulching head mfg. and they had no clue about the system but assured with those numbers it would work. I also think we struck some luck because case will warranty the machine bumper to bumper for three years or 3000 hours. No other machine mfg. would offer that. The case dealer ordered the head for us and had no problem with it being run on there machine.

Thanks for your information we will take all the help we can get.

 

[QwikDraw]

Good luck! (with that CASE)

Let's face it the salesman is going to tell you what you want to hear. The factory is going to pay when it breaks.

HP and TORQUE are as important as flow and psi.

 

[john_bud]

Good luck! (with that CASE)

Let's face it the salesman is going to tell you what you want to hear. The factory is going to pay when it breaks.

HP and TORQUE are as important as flow and psi.

This is just my understanding of this topic. Maybe worth looking at or not.


HP is equivalent to hydraulic PSI

Torque is equivalent to hydraulic Flow

If 2 systems have the same quoted HP and flow and psi - the one with the greater engine torque will get more work done in the field. Actually, it will be able to sustain a higher average output level, but that translates to harder to stall and easier to recover.

just my $0.02

jb

 

[Digdeep]

Rutwad,


I looked online at the ASV website at the RC100. The machine has 100 engine horsepower but they only claim to have 73 hydraulic horsepower. We demoed the case with the bradco XL 165-5 and seemed to run great. The BIC super HY-FLOW hydraulic system is a add on for case above and beyond standard hy-flow options. We talked with all the mulching head mfg. and they had no clue about the system but assured with those numbers it would work. I also think we struck some luck because case will warranty the machine bumper to bumper for three years or 3000 hours. No other machine mfg. would offer that. The case dealer ordered the head for us and had no problem with it being run on there machine.

Thanks for your information we will take all the help we can get.

I just think you should demo another machine for a reference. without that you may think the Case machine is the best thing since sliced bread even though another machine may run the head heaps better. I can virtually assure you that the RC100 will run that head better than the Case machine due to engine torque (304ft lbs compared to 263ft lbs for the Case-14% more), engine hp (92 net hp compared to 82 net hp for the Case- 11% more), load sensing hydraulics vs none, better cooling, 20gal hyd resevoir compared to 6.5gal in the Case (68% more oil for cooling), etc. These are very big factors for running highflow attachments. In the end you may end up buying the Case but you should at least demo another machine to have something to compare it to. Good luck.

 

[cbturf]

OK I knew when I took all of those physics classes I would use the info some day. Horsepower is the measurement of work and tourque is the measurement of force expressed in a unit of weight in distance (ei pound feet). These two measurements are a function of each other with RPM being the variable and a constant of 5252. Are you lost yet...as a function it looks like hp*5252=T*rpm. To get the torque or an engine take the horsepower at a given rpm. For my FTX 140 the tourque at the maximum rated rpm of 2400 is.
140hp*5252/2400=306.
This relationship is why I like the bigger engines over the smaller ones. When you slow down or stall your drum it is the torque of the engine that will apply the force through the hydraulic sustem to get it spinning again. In my opinion I ignore the horsepower number a focus specifically on the torque number. If horsepower was king all of the big trucks on the road would have those little 6 liter engines that run 14,000 rpm like the ones in formula one cars that are rated at 900hp. But if you look inside those numbers you get the rest of the picture 900*5252/14000=337lb feet of touque. On the other hand a 13L cat engine in the FTX-440 produces only 440hp @ 1800 rpm. 440*5252/1800=1284lb feet of torque. Everyone got it?

 

[Digdeep]

OK I knew when I took all of those physics classes I would use the info some day. Horsepower is the measurement of work and tourque is the measurement of force expressed in a unit of weight in distance (ei pound feet). These two measurements are a function of each other with RPM being the variable and a constant of 5252. Are you lost yet...as a function it looks like hp*5252=T*rpm. To get the torque or an engine take the horsepower at a given rpm. For my FTX 140 the tourque at the maximum rated rpm of 2400 is.
140hp*5252/2400=306.
This relationship is why I like the bigger engines over the smaller ones. When you slow down or stall your drum it is the torque of the engine that will apply the force through the hydraulic sustem to get it spinning again. In my opinion I ignore the horsepower number a focus specifically on the torque number. If horsepower was king all of the big trucks on the road would have those little 6 liter engines that run 14,000 rpm like the ones in formula one cars that are rated at 900hp. But if you look inside those numbers you get the rest of the picture 900*5252/14000=337lb feet of touque. On the other hand a 13L cat engine in the FTX-440 produces only 440hp @ 1800 rpm. 440*5252/1800=1284lb feet of torque. Everyone got it?

Got it. Thats what I've long been saying without all of that math you just laid out. Torque is a huge factor in running a brush cutter under load. I think the CAT 297 is the formula one car that you mention- 90 net hp but only 217ft lbs of torque out of a 3.3L engine yet the theoretical hyd. hp of that machine is 78 hyd. hp..NO way! Once you factor in all of the other elements such as pump type (piston vs gear, direct driven vs belt driven), oil resevoir capacity (heat dissipation), cooler size, air flow through the cooler, etc. it paints a clearer picture. Excellent explanation.

 

[rutwad]

Got it. Thats what I've long been saying without all of that math you just laid out. Torque is a huge factor in running a brush cutter under load. I think the CAT 297 is the formula one car that you mention- 90 net hp but only 217ft lbs of torque out of a 3.3L engine yet the theoretical hyd. hp of that machine is 78 hyd. hp..NO way! Once you factor in all of the other elements such as pump type (piston vs gear, direct driven vs belt driven), oil resevoir capacity (heat dissipation), cooler size, air flow through the cooler, etc. it paints a clearer picture. Excellent explanation.

I agree. Torque is the important # to look at. That is why I would take the RC100 over the Cat (but the pressurized cab would be nice).

And the Case has something like 6 or 7 gallons of hyd. oil. That should cause it to heat up too much too quick, unless Case has a cooling system that makes other manufacturers drool!

 

[Robbie Hegwood]

Quick recap. More hyd hp than engine hp leads to the tractor not relieving when the heads gets into a bind and stalls the engine. The engine going from 2000+ rpm to stop is BAD!!!. Done alot on Rayco's.
Small hyd reservoirs(spell) leads to extremely high temps and usually fire. Plus short fluid and pump life.
Next, I have personally run the 297C and it ran good. I had no idea it was down that much on torque. I will double check that tomorrow at a Cat demo. I'm not promoting/demoting the cat but it ran good.
By all means run as many as you can. If a dealer will not let you demo one what kind of support will the offer. Also do as long a demo as possible and in hottest part of the day. That will tell you alot.
Business side. Could you partner up with a larger outfit. You will run into material that is too big, they can back you up and they usually do not like smaller machines. Good for you.
Keep the questions coming and we'll do our best.
What are of Texas are you in and what's the lay of the land there?

 

[cbturf]

DUDE, I did not even notice the small oil capacity of the case. I know you said it has an auxillary oil cooler that will add both cooling capacity and some volume. But at 41 gallons per minute your oil will circulate 2.5 times per minute, even with added cooling your oil will get hot very quickly. If you like this machine a lot try to rent it for a month or so to see if it will perform. When I bought my ASV I rented it for a couple of months and found out that it was not what I needed. I was out the rent money but I was not stuck with a machine that could not do what I needed.

 

[Digdeep]

Quick recap. More hyd hp than engine hp leads to the tractor not relieving when the heads gets into a bind and stalls the engine. The engine going from 2000+ rpm to stop is BAD!!!. Done alot on Rayco's.
Small hyd reservoirs(spell) leads to extremely high temps and usually fire. Plus short fluid and pump life.
Next, I have personally run the 297C and it ran good. I had no idea it was down that much on torque. I will double check that tomorrow at a Cat demo. I'm not promoting/demoting the cat but it ran good.
By all means run as many as you can. If a dealer will not let you demo one what kind of support will the offer. Also do as long a demo as possible and in hottest part of the day. That will tell you alot.
Business side. Could you partner up with a larger outfit. You will run into material that is too big, they can back you up and they usually do not like smaller machines. Good for you.
Keep the questions coming and we'll do our best.
What are of Texas are you in and what's the lay of the land there?

Robbie you're pretty much on the money except that is is "Impossible" for a machine to produce more hydraulic hp than the engine puts out in net hp. That engine hp will be consumed by the tractor by way of hydraulic flow to the tracks and the lift and tilt cylinders. This is still excluding the "hydraulic hp to the head" and you still have the A/C compressor. If you only have "X" engine hp you can't get "Y-greater" hydraulic hp.

I have it from a reliable source, re. CAT rep that the 297C engine torque is only 217ft lbs. The Bobcat T320 is 232ft lbs, the Case CT450 is 263ft lbs, the JD CT332 can't be much more either because it's only a 3L engine and the RC100 is 304ft lbs.