Question?

[Digdeep]

DUDE, I did not even notice the small oil capacity of the case. I know you said it has an auxillary oil cooler that will add both cooling capacity and some volume. But at 41 gallons per minute your oil will circulate 2.5 times per minute, even with added cooling your oil will get hot very quickly. If you like this machine a lot try to rent it for a month or so to see if it will perform. When I bought my ASV I rented it for a couple of months and found out that it was not what I needed. I was out the rent money but I was not stuck with a machine that could not do what I needed.

Exactly. The Bobcat T320 only has a 4.7 gal resevoir and put's out 37gpm. Demo, demo, demo! You may end up getting a dedicated mulching machine. I am not in the mulching business but I used to sell Bobcats, love the compact equipment industry, and to a fault am a spec junkie. As far as compact rubber track loaders go there is no machinewith greater hydraulic capability or flexibility (buckets, grapples, ability to work in sensitive areas, etc.) than the ASV RC100, but it may not be what you need due to ground conditions or job sizes. Try them all. As a former salesman I would tell you that are about to make a big financial commitment so do your homework.

 

[cbturf]

DD I have to disagree with you on the HHD surpassing the engine HP. Fluid dynamics make this possible, one example that I like to us on the ability of hydraulic pressure to be multiplied is the fact that my 110lb wife can use a bottle jack to lift up my 8500lb F-450. If you take a 1 inch cylinder and put 1 lb of force on it and it is connected to a 10 in cylinder you will net 10 lbs of force on the other end. This is how a small electric motor can run a 10 ton press at your local machine shop. Robbie is exactly right you need to have your relief system set up just right or you will kill the engine a lot. We had a rental Fecon on the last job to help us get finished faster and the relief was wrong and neither of us could keep the engine running.

Hydraulic machinery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

for the nerds

 

[Digdeep]

DD I have to disagree with you on the HHD surpassing the engine HP. Fluid dynamics make this possible, one example that I like to us on the ability of hydraulic pressure to be multiplied is the fact that my 110lb wife can use a bottle jack to lift up my 8500lb F-450. If you take a 1 inch cylinder and put 1 lb of force on it and it is connected to a 10 in cylinder you will net 10 lbs of force on the other end. This is how a small electric motor can run a 10 ton press at your local machine shop. Robbie is exactly right you need to have your relief system set up just right or you will kill the engine a lot. We had a rental Fecon on the last job to help us get finished faster and the relief was wrong and neither of us could keep the engine running.

I'm definitely with you on the bottle jack and the proper relief settings, but I'm not aware of a hydraulic pump system on a machine that can multiply hyd hp this way. The bottle jack has no place for the oil to go. I'm open to learning more if this is possible on a pump though.

 

[cbturf]

Check out the wikipedia link it spells out all of the physics on the deal. It can be confusing but it really does work.

Calculations
Calculation of the required max. power output for the diesel engine, rough estimation:

(1) Check the max. powerpoint, i.e. the point where pressure times flow reach the max. value.

(2) Ediesel = (Pmax·Qtot)÷η.

Qtot = calculate with the theoretical pump flow for the consumers not including leakages at max. power point.

Pmax = actual pump pressure at max. power point.

Note: η is the total efficiency = (output mechanical power ÷ input mechanical power). For rough estimations, η = 0.75. Add 10-20% (depends on the application) to this power value.

(3) Calculate the required pumpdisplacement from required max. sum of flow for the consumers in worst case and the dieselengine rpm in this point. The max. flow can differ from the flow used for calculation of the diesel engine power. Pump volumetric efficiency average, piston pumps: ηvol= 0.93.

Pumpdisplacement Vpump= Qtot ÷ ndiesel ÷ 0.93.

(4) Calculation of prel. cooler capacity: Heat dissipation from hydraulic oil tanks, valves, pipes and hydraulic components is less than a few percent in standard mobile equipment and the cooler capacity must include some margins. Minimum cooler capacity, Ecooler = 0.25Ediesel

At least 25% of the input power must be dissipated by the cooler when peak power is utilized for long periods. In normal case however, the peak power is used for only short periods, thus the actual cooler capacity required might be considerably less. The oil volume in the hydraulic tank is also acting as a heat accumulator when peak power is used. The system efficiency is very much dependent on the type of hydraulic work tool equipment, the hydraulic pumps and motors used and power input to the hydraulics may vary a lot. Each circuit must be evaluated and the load cycle estimated. New or modified systems must always be tested in practical work, covering all possible load cycles. An easy way of measuring the actual average powerloss in the system is to equip the machine with a test cooler and measure the oiltemperature at cooler inlet, oiltemperature at cooler outlet and the oilflow through the cooler, when the machine is in normal operating mode. From these figures the test cooler powerdissipation can be calculated and this is equal to the powerloss when temperatures are stabilized. From this test the actual required cooler can be calculated to reach specified oiltemperature in the oiltank. One problem can be to assemble the measuring equipment inline, especially the oilflow meter.

In the simplest terms if you apply force T to a lower RPM horsepower goes up.

 

[jasimpson]

Dig Deep

Please check out this web site. www.burlingtoninstallationcorp.com. They have the specs on the BIC super hy-flow system and will give the engine horsepower and hydraulic horsepower. I will get back with yall in a bit. Appreciate all the information.

 

[TMTS]

don't know anything about this machine, but its at least in your state...

Listing Photos - EquipmentTraderOnline.com

good small purpose-built machine...

 

[cbturf]

J,
I know it seems like we are trying to poke holes in the machine you are looking at but I assure you there are a LOT of good guys on this site. Where else will you find a bunch of guys with whom you are potential competition so willing to help you out. I am very confident that every piece of advice you have gotten here is everyones honest attempt to steer you in the right direction and I hope you take it all into consideration. That being said Burlingtons web siteleaves out a critical part of the HHP equation. All hydraulic systems have some loss. The 89 HHP they advertise has no factor for efficiency loss. I would seriously look into other machines and if this one seems best then make your purchase. One thing that I like is how the cimaf heads that Robbie is peddling around here, is they tune your head to your flow and pressure. If you are producing more flow and pressure you will need larger displacement motors in your head or you will generate more heat further taxing your coolers, on the other hand if your motors displacement is to high you will not achieve full rotor speed and you will loose efficiency there too.

Now you guys now a little bit of how my brain works...I went to school to become a mechanical engineer. As if there is not enough to look at it deciding wich machine to buy without trying to make sure all of the engineering is done to your spec. I might go get me an 8-5 and stop eating dust and bathing in hydraulic oil every day, nope I'll keep mulching I would be chewing on a gun barrel by noon the first day if I were stuck in a cubical somewhere.

 

[jasimpson]

To All,

If you go to SalvageSale | Innovative Recovery. Incomparable Results. there is a ASV RC100 with a magnum head for sale at a smoking hot price. I understand that heat is a big issue with the hydraulics. In my opinion more fluid capacity will just allow you to go longer with out stoping for a cool down period. I think how you run and take care of your equipment is a huge factor in your equipment runing efficiantly and without breakdowns. I have demoed a few machines but as far as the packeage that case is offering it is the best deal. The case machine offers a auxillary cooler on the machine and the bradco head. I hope this will help in keeping temp down. We bought and payed for the Case 450CT with a bradco 165-5 head and a tree sheer. We liked this machine the best and have multiple jobs lined up that we need to start. Thank yall so much for all your help. QuikDraw we spoke directly to Case and Bradco and also called BIC to confirm all of there numbers. We did not rely just on the salesman words. He is of course trying to make a living as well. CBTurff if I am not mistaken the Case 450CT puts out only 34 GPM not 41. On ASV web site the total gallons for hydraulic fluid is 20 gallons. The Case had a total of 17 gallons with a 6.5 gallon reserve. I am not seeing a reserve on the ASV website please correct me if I am wrong. Please let me know if I am wrong on any information. Thanks Again.

 

[cbturf]

If you bought the machine already we are just rambling, I am very qualified in that field as well! The ASV website shows a hydraulic capacity of only 20 gal as well. I am well known on this site for RAMBLING about dedicated machines. I am working at full cycle at 8000 feet of elevation and my machine requires no cooldown periods I stop once a day for grease, fuel and to blow out filters. I am running a Fecon FTX-140 dedicated mulcher. I hope you have a lot of sucess and sincerely hope that your machine runs like a top. If that is the CASE then it just gives us more viable options while using you as the guinnea pig. I took one for the team last week and destroyed $1100 worth of fecon knives in 6 hours, some lessons hurt more than others.


A wise man learns from his mistakes...a very wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

 

[jasimpson]

CB,

I hope I did not ruffle any feathers. I will be the test dummie for this machine and give you 100% no bull_ _ _ _ feedback. You have been a big help in this venture. I can not thank you enough. We are looking to purchase a second machine inside of two months and all this information plus the trials with our machine will help with that purchase. We will be doing this as a part time job and it has already turned into a full time job with the jobs on the books.