Quickie loader, very slow. WHY?

[jahmes143]

@oldnslo yes, enough space. Just have to cobble together the correct adapter fittings

 

[rScotty]

@oldnslo yes, enough space. Just have to cobble together the correct adapter fittings

For safety, be sure your cobbled fittings are hydraulic type...I think NAPA has them. Hydraulic are usually 3000 psi where standard hardware/plumbing is 800 max.

If you get that flowmeter and can fit it in the line you describe, then you could put a T right in series with the lowmete. That is the best first test point for the the pressure gauge. In fact if you put a T there along with a $20, 5000 psi damped gauge, it can just live there and give you a constant check on the condition of the hydraulics. Plumbed there, it is also useful for estimating weights lifted by the loader and/or 3pt.

I did find a pdf of the operator's manual onlinel. After going through it, I realize that if this isn't easy, we are going to need a hydruaulic diagram for the system. There looks to be more to that hydraulic system than I'd thought.... For example, the PTO actuation, draft control, and some other parts are hydraulic and one version had a hydraulic assist on the clutch. These all have their own relief valves - any of them could be stuck open enough to be stealing flow.

So.... If anyone following along has a workshop manual for the M4700/M5400 & could link to the hydraulic section it would be a big help in finding the right test points.

I agree the first thing is to test the loader control valve as you and oldnslo are doing now. Everything we learn helps. Next step after going through the loader controls would normally be to put the meter in the Power Beyond (PB) port that goes from the FEL loader valve back to the rear end - But only if it is plumbed that way. It may well be plumbed so that the 3pt and rear get the initial pressure from the hydraulic pump and then the FEL loader valve gets flow to its IN port from the rear remotes. That is common in aftermarket loaders.

We probably should have asked how it is plumbed at the onset....the problem could be as simple as the way the remotes are plumbed. The operator manual shows them to be unusual... So check that if you can.
rScotty

 

[oldnslo]

Rscotty
Good point on using hydraulic fittings vs black pipe.

Some things that don’t make sense to me from information provided

If a function is moving slow with little to no pressure required during travel why does the pressure climb to 2500 PSI? If there is an alternate flow path taking majority of the flow when moving under no load it should never build pressure since flow will take the path of least resistance.

That is why asked if could plumb flow meter in pressure line from the pump. That will tell us what the pump is doing

 

[rScotty]

Rscotty
Good point on using hydraulic fittings vs black pipe.

Some things that don’t make sense to me from information provided

If a function is moving slow with little to no pressure required during travel why does the pressure climb to 2500 PSI? If there is an alternate flow path taking majority of the flow when moving under no load it should never build pressure since flow will take the path of least resistance.

That is why asked if could plumb flow meter in pressure line from the pump. That will tell us what the pump is doing

Yes, it isn't making sense to me either.

In post #15 he says, " Pressure is 0 under no load and remains 0 during all functions of the FEL other than it spikes to, and stays at, 2500 when bucket touches ground and raises front wheels off ground."

I agree with you - that is exactly what we expect if measuring pressure from the pump to the FEL control. i.e. zero pressure until he puts on the load of lifting the front, and then the PSI goes up to the relief valve setting and stays there.

Then I looked at the Ops manual and realized we don't know how it is plumbed!! In a normal FEL, the pump goes to the FEL control valve and then via the PowerBeyond Port back to the rear hydraulic functions. But this is an aftermarket add on. On his, the FEL control valve might be plumbed from the remotes, and that would be AFTER the fluid has done whatever it does in the 3pt, draft control, and that screwball hydraulic PTO on/off.

If his Quickie Loader FEL control valve is plumbed from the remotes, could it be that one of those other circuit is leaking enough internally to slow down the loader....but not leaking enough to completely stop it?

If so, where to put the T?
rScotty

 

[jahmes143]

I don't have remotes, i.e., no remote lever below 3pt lever and draft control lever. Maybe that simplifies it??

Will be sure to get proper PSI hydraulic fittings.

I will re-check tomorrow, but I believe the supply and return line are plumbed directly from the pump to the FEL control valve.

 

[rScotty]

I don't have remotes, i.e., no remote lever below 3pt lever and draft control lever. Maybe that simplifies it??

Will be sure to get proper PSI hydraulic fittings.

I will re-check tomorrow, but I believe the supply and return line are plumbed directly from the pump to the FEL control valve.

It certainly does help. Simpler is better..... So where is the FEL valve getting it's pressure? Can you take some photos of that FEL control valve? What I'm trying to do is to confirm whether the hydraulic output from the 4 bolt flange on top of the hydraulic pump goes directly and exclusively to the FEL control valve, or does it do something else.

BTW, from the only illustration that I've found so far (in post #7), shows there are two 4 bolt flanges on the top of that hydraulic pump. If so, I'm guessing that the inner flange goes to drive the loader and from there back to the 3pt, and the outer one would be the power steering.

Oh, I forgot to say to check in the Ops manual and make sure the PTO is turned off. The PTO hydraulic actuating valve is a known source of problems...

rScotty

 

[jahmes143]

 

[jahmes143]

Do those pictures help? Perhaps worth noting...there's a "sound" coming from the fill reservoir with the cap removed. Barely noticeable to the naked ear, but very clear when I insert a tube inside the reservoir and put it to my ear. The sound of liquid. Can't tell if it's a hissing, or a gurgling, or simply the return oil dumping into the reservoir via the return tube. The sound completely and instantly goes away with any movement of the FEL.

Also don't think I mentioned before, 2 functions of the FEL will not operate simultaneously. For example, can't raise and curl, it's one or the other.

 

[rScotty]

Do those pictures help? Perhaps worth noting...there's a "sound" coming from the fill reservoir with the cap removed. Barely noticeable to the naked ear, but very clear when I insert a tube inside the reservoir and put it to my ear. The sound of liquid. Can't tell if it's a hissing, or a gurgling, or simply the return oil dumping into the reservoir via the return tube. The sound completely and instantly goes away with any movement of the FEL.

Also don't think I mentioned before, 2 functions of the FEL will not operate simultaneously. For example, can't raise and curl, it's one or the other.

Yes, the pictures help a lot. We now know that your loader has a typical FEL control valve with what looks to be a power beyond port taking flow to the 3pt. Yours not having the rear remotes does simplify things.

To answer your questions best as I can.....That's clever to listen to the return that way and I'm not surprised you would hear the returning fluid when listening through the full cap. My guess is what you hear seems normal, especially since the return noise should stop when you work the loader and it does. The rest of the noise?? The bubbling?? Well, I am not surprised that there is some suction side air leak in 30 year old hoses, but my guess from the other things you've saidis that any suction leak is not the main cause of the loader being so slow.
Yes, lots of guesses here.

On the curl and raise not working simultaneously - that one is easy. Separating the functions is common when a manufacturer specifies an inexpensive loader control valve. Coupling the functions requires a more complex casting and additional machine work on the spools. So separate functions like you have ust means Quickie Loaders used a generic control valve instead of a more expensive one made to match your tractor. flow You can replace that valve with a better one that will bolt right up someday if you want. A better one will allow feathering both motions at once, and the best valves may also have some degree of internal fluid regeneration - which really does speeds up a loader.
All in all, some small part of the slowness is probably due to that control valve, but the valve shouldn't be slowing motion as much as yours does.

The photos are great! Now we can make some educated guesses, but because yours has power steering we probably still need the hydraulic schematic in the workshop manual for the Kubota M5400, do you have that manual? I can't seem to find one free online. The place I found the operator's manual - attached to post #22 - doesn't have a workshop manual.
However, there is an active market in old manuals on Ebay. Take a look there. The best are the factory workshop manuals - usually in printed form.

Any info we can get from Quickie Loaders about the model 310 loader and Kubota hookup would help too.

1st Photo:
Line 1 is the "P" or pressure line coming either from the hydraulic pump...OR from one side of a priority valve that separates the main hydraulic pump flow into a power steering flow that has priority and then the remaining flow goes to everything else.
Line 2 is the return to the "T" sump or Tank.
Line 3 is the power beyond that goes back to the 3pt. If we could see the side of the valve casting there should be a raised "PB" there. You should trace all these lines to confirm.

NOTE: IF LINES 1 & 3 ARE REVERSED into the Control valve, that could cause the loader to be slow. So be sure to trace those lines !

2nd Photo. Not sure what view this is. What are we looking at?

3rd Photo. From underneath? #2 should be going to the tank sump, but is it? I see some splits in that old hose where it bends, but if it is return to tank, those don't matter.
Is the steel line the suction line from sump tank to your filter?
What is the unnumbered hose?

Now we are getting somewhere.
rScotty

 

[jahmes143]

The photos are great! Now we can make some educated guesses, but because yours has power steering we probably still need the hydraulic schematic in the workshop manual for the Kubota M5400, do you have that manual? I will look for one

1st Photo:
Line 1 is the "P" or pressure line coming either from the hydraulic pump...OR from one side of a priority valve that separates the main hydraulic pump flow into a power steering flow that has priority and then the remaining flow goes to everything else. Line 1 comes from rockshaft cylinder
Line 2 is the return to the "T" sump or Tank.
Line 3 is the power beyond that goes back to the 3pt. If we could see the side of the valve casting there should be a raised "PB" there. You should trace all these lines to confirm. There is a P and a T on the casting for lines 1 and 2, but no casing markings for line 3

NOTE: IF LINES 1 & 3 ARE REVERSED into the Control valve, that could cause the loader to be slow. So be sure to trace those lines!

2nd Photo. Not sure what view this is. What are we looking at? Lines 1 and 3 where they terminate into the rockshaft cylinder.

3rd Photo. From underneath? #2 should be going to the tank sump, but is it? I see some splits in that old hose where it bends, but if it is return to tank, those don't matter. Yes, from underneath looking up. I do believe it's going to tank sump. Splits in hose are not leaking, but will replace hose in near future.
Is the steel line the suction line from sump tank to your filter? Yes
What is the unnumbered hose? Actually 2 hoses there (one above the other), hoses 1 and 3 going to/from the rockshaft and control valve.

Now we are getting somewhere.