Re-engine a 425?

[MossRoad]

Woops! Sorry if I sounded heated. Didn't mean to come across that way if I did. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Just want folks to be sure to think this stuff through before purchase. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Abitnutz]

I guess I just don’t understand. If there is a better engine out there and it will go in with minimal engineering and essentially no cost increase, why wouldn't you offer it to your customers? Like I said, given the choice between two essentially identical PT’s, one with an air cooled engine and the other with a liquid cooled engine at about the same price…I bet the LC out sells its air cooled counterpart by a wide margin. Would offering an LC engine ultimately sell more Power Tracs? Probably not immediately but improving the product will always eventually increase sales through customer satisfaction. I have read the replies that the PT-425 doesn’t need anymore power, that they don’t bog down now. The LC engine variant is the same power.

<font color="blue"> </font>

Let’s face it; I want to run my tractor till I want to stop, not when it needs to cool down. I doubt that I would even recognize when the air cooled engine was over heating. None of mine ever had an oil temp gauge. Not doubt to keep from frightening me. The added maintenance of an LC engine I think is a myth. If it extends the life of the engine life then the maintenance is reduced. I’d rather replace a hose or thermostat than the bearings. There is a reason why you can’t buy air cooled cars and truck or pretty much anything but lawn mowers. Even Porsche liquid cooled its boxer engines.

Don’t over look the reduced noise as well. That may not be important to some but I find it worth considering.

 

[Abitnutz]

I hope that didn't appear ill tempered. I used to be a motorcycle mechanic years back. When they all swiched from air to liquid cooling...life imediately became better. I did come home with a pervasive odor of ant-freeze...I guess that's better than 90w gear il..yuck.

 

[Bob999]

<font color="red"> If there is a better engine out there and it will go in with minimal engineering and essentially no cost increase, why wouldn't you offer it to your customers? </font>

I have some question about your premise of "essentially no cost increase". I believe that you said that the engine costs more to buy. I doubt that the engine cost includes the radiator, hoses, coolant recovery tank, coolant, etc. that would add further cost. The data you posted indicated the engine is larger (longer). That would make the tractor itself longer, with more steel, more weight, etc. Finally, my experience is that maintaining a liquid cooling system does take time and money.

Thinking about it another way, PT makes a 30HP liquid cooled tractor (oil cooled). It is the PT 1430. Of course it is longer, heavier, and a lot more expensive.

 

[Abitnutz]

In an earlier post I pointed out that there is less than $200 in the price between the two engines. That does include the radiator, hoses and coolant tank. It does not include coolant but it doesn’t include oil either. I doubt that less than half gallon of anti-freeze will break anyone. When one is considering dropping upwards $10,000 on a tractor, a $200 increase in price is essentially no increase at all. Again, I think most people would pay that
The increased length of the engine is because of the radiator itself. It is less than 4 inches and radiators can be relocated to a more convenient place if need be. That may be where the bit of engineering comes in.
The point of this is not increased power but perhaps use a better, longer lasting, quieter and more desirable engine for about the same dollar amount. I really can’t believe that adding a very small radiator to a PT-425 will cause the builder to go to a PT-430 sized tractor. That’s essentially what we’re talking about here, just adding a radiator to a PT-425. The engine two engines are almost identical. One is the water cooled variant of the other

 

[J_J]

In reference to water cool engines, PT's mid 90's model, had water cooled engines. My 1445 has a 45 hp Industrial Ford engine. As far as I know, it has not had any problems. Just the regular oil change, air filter. PCV valve. It will probably run all day until it runs out of gas, and maintain the regular operating temp. My hydraulic fluid get quit warm.

 

[FOURTEEN]

Liquid cooled or diesel!! So many folks seem to want liquid cooled, or diesel, because they are supposed to last longer!!! How many PT-425 buyers will ever wear out their air cooled gas engines if they properly maintain them??!!

Ever since they became available, I have used synthetic lubs, currently Amsoil, in my air cooled gas engines! The synthetics ignore high engine temps! I have never had any engine service, other than tune ups, on any of them! (Currently: ’76 Power King tractor, ’84 Honda ATC 70, ’85 Honda lawn tractor, ’85 Honda ATC 200X, ’86 Yamaha Moto-4 80, ’90 chainsaw, ’91 Honda 250X, ’95 rotary mower, ’99 generator, ’03 chipper, and my ’04 PT-425.) I have never seen so much as a whiff of blue smoke from any of them! Over the years I have had several rotary lawnmowers that went to the dump because the wheels fell off, or the decks rotted out, not because the engines went bad! Actually, it would be OK if one of them did die, so I would have an excuse to buy something new!!! But it looks like they may well outlive me!!!
So, if these engines will last my lifetime, what the Hell do I need a LC, or diesel, engine for that may last two or three of my lifetimes!!??!!

Most of the noise from air cooled engines is due to the low quality mufflers provided, not just because they are air cooled!! The PT-425 is loud, but I doubt that just changing it to a LC engine would make it noticeably quieter.

AC, or LC, you still have to get rid of the same amount of heat! I vote for a more efficient hydraulic oil cooler before trying to find space for a radiator! It’s the hydraulics that are running way too hot on the PT-425, not the engine!! One of my next projects is to find a way to lower the hydraulic oil operating temperature on the PT-425.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[SnowRidge]

Water cooled engines last longer than air cooled, and they make it easier for their designer to meet tougher emission standards. These are the reasons that there are virtually no air cooled automobiles being built anymore, and why so many motorcycles are now liquid cooled.

That said, the new liquid cooled Kohler is their first generation liquid cooled product, as far as I know. I don't think I would want to take a chance on it until the inevitable bugs are shaken out.

It would also make an already crowded engine compartment even worse, as far as accessibility goes.

The concept of water cooling in a PT-425 sounds good, indeed. The reality may not be so delightful. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Schultz]

To stir the pot a little more, I would love having one of these Briggs & Straton Engines in a PT

L x W x H
17.09 x 17.05 x 21.58
Briggs LC Diesel

Vanguard Diesel LC

 

[BAGTIC]

The three inch difference in length includes an automotive type radiator. Kohler say the Aegis water cooled engines fit the same footprint as the air-cooled Commanders. I e-mailed PT several days ago before seeing this thread and asked if an Aegis could be substituted but did not get an answer, yet.

Why? More power. More torque. Besides the general rule of thumb is that liquid cooled engines are quieter, longer lived, more fuel efficient, more capable of handling brief overloads.

Also for those who like a cabin to keep warm a water cooled engine offers the possibility of a cabin heat exchanger for warmth. A liquid cooled engine would also be adaptable to an engine heater to pre-warm the engine on those extra cold days in order to ease starting.

I hope someone at PT is reading this. The Aegis engine would end any doubt on my part, get me off the fence, and ensure that a check would soon be in the mail.