Re-Grading the Slope of Land for Drainage

[glennmac]

I could use some ideas as to how to use my tractor to re-grade the land abutting my creek to improve the drainage into the creek.

Right now, the land slopes down from the level of the creek banks on both sides before it slopes up again. Therefore there are swales, or large shallow bowl effects, for a few acres on each side of the creek. The water stands in these swales and doesnt drain well.

One of my ideas is to simply regrade the land contours somehow. Now, I cant bring in fill because there is no access for trucks. Nor could I afford it. So I would have to scrape dirt from higher places and move it into lower places, and maybe create channels. Also keep in mind that the soil in the lowest areas is moist to boggy except after a long dry spell. The soil in the higher areas is more normal.

We are talking about changing the grade of about a total of 3 acres. I realize that the right tool for the job is a bulldozer and excavating equipment.

However, if I did want to do it as a long-term tractor project, what would be the tractor implements that I would need and how would I use them to do the job?

 

[Knight9]

Well most folks who have a box scraper would probably say to use that....I don't have one....so let me tell you how I've done a similar thing with my implements. Where the soil is decent, I've used my rototiller to loosen the soil then used the FEL to move the loose soil to the low area. I've just kept doing that until things are a little smoother. Course....if I had the $$ I probably would have just bought a box scraper with scarifiers and done it the easy way! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Kevin

 

[cowboydoc]

Kevin's right. A boxscraper and front end loader and you should be able to do the job.

 

[john4nh]

If the ground is hard a disc will help break things up.

 

[RobS]

That is a lot of earth to move and a lot of ground to cover. I recently removed the topsoil from a previously wooded section of our lot in preparation for our driveway. I used the box scraper like a big earthmover would. I drove in circles (more or less), filling the box as I moved through the topsoil area, dragging the soil behind me, then emptying in my pile area. I created something of a berm in the pile area (a desired result anyway). I had to be careful to keep the growing berm wide and flat enough for safe operation, but it wasn't too hard to do. It went pretty quick as I was always moving and didn't have to change directions.

You could use a similar approach with some planning but your boggy soil may be a problem. You'd have to wait for one of your dry periods for it to work.

If I'd have done the same thing with my FEL I'd probably still be there. The cycle time through all the gyrations of forwards, backwards, raise, lower, dump etc. just takes too long.

Seems like someone (can't remember who) posted some pics of a pond he dug recently. It will be interesting to hear his techniques /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[radman]

For projects like yours, I use a small, 1yd soil mover. The digging component uses hydraulics and are pulled behind the tractor. They are similar to the big earth movers (scrapers) seen are large excavation and road projects, but are pulled by a tractor. They allow dirt to be picked up and moved. Next week I will use mine to level 600 yds of fill dirt being brought in for future pole barn. I will use my old allis chalmers D19 (72hp) instead of the kub 3710 just because of more muscle and weight. The 3710 could do the job but the D19 is faster. I will use the 3710 for final grading and to knock down the piles of dirt before using the soil mover. My soil mover is probably 30-40 years old. They still bring a good price at auctions. Saw one identical to mine at an auction 1 month ago bring $2500. You might be able to rent one. If the ground is hard, it is best to break up the soil with a disc, subsoiler, tiller etc. before trying to use the soil mover. They don't dig well in hard soil - to light in weight.

 

[glennmac]

Thanks for the ideas. I hadnt though of tilling. Maybe if I tilled it up I could pull the dirt with my backblade. How deep can a tiller go?

Radman, I've never heard of a soil mover (but of course all this dirt stuff is relatively new to me), and I am having a hard time picturing what is looks like and does. What creates the digging force? Do you then drag the soil as with a boxscraper? Sounds too expensive for me, in any event, even at the used prices. My tractor may be too small also.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I've never used one just seen them advertised but what about a 3ph "pond scoop"? Anyone had experience using one?

 

[Knight9]

Most tiller should go at least 6" deep depending on the soil. It may take several passes to get to the full depth.

A soil mover/pond scoop/dirt pan is basically a mini version of the big guys you see in the construction zone skimming off layers of dirt.

Kevin

 

[glennmac]

Kevin, these pictures sure are great. I'm still puzzling how it works. The pistons lower something that cuts and then lifts it up?

 

[Knight9]

Yes, it actually lowers (in this photo) the whole black "bin". On the front is a slot the width of the bin with a blade on the bottom. It skims along as deep as you force it lifting off a couple of inches of dirt and as you drive forward the dirt slides through the slot over the top of the blade and into the "bin". Kind of like an oversized cheeze slicer I guess. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Kevin

 

[glennmac]

I see. Clever. So its ability to scoop dirt is limited by its weight and the hardness of the cheese. Like a boxscraper: heavier would be more effective.

 

[Knight9]

/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Yup....hard cheese makes for a difficult time!!!

 

[hayden]

Can you get the same effect by peeling off a layer of soil with your loader bucket and depositing it somewhere else? In many ways these seems like a scoop and dump bucket that you pull behind the tractor rather than push in front. My guess is that with this tool it's easier to control the scoop depth and spread of the discharge than with a bucket. I tend to get the well-described woop-dee-doos with my loader

 

[hayden]

I just went through something somewhat like what you are describing just last week. After putting up an attached barn we needed to regrade to get a reasonable driveway and slope everything away from the house rather than into it. We were taking on no more than 1/4 acre so it's quite different in size, but it had the added charm of being almost entirely ledge, and where it wasn't ledge it was evidence of why New England is littered with stone walls. Ours grew a bunch last week!

Anyway, from my limited experience so far, I'd suggest considering the soil makeup before selecting your implement. Breaking up the ground is key to being able to subsequently move it somewhere else. The scaifiers of a box blade will work well in almost anything up to soil heavily laden with rock or ledge. The worst parts that we faced I actually broke out the backhoe and broke it all up that way. A tiller will work well in clear soil, but if there are rocks I think a box blade with scarifiers will be better.

As for actually moving the soil, I ended up using the loader almost exclusively. Why not the box blade? Pretty simple - the loader holds more material than the blade, and the blade is really meant to even a grade, not move stuff from one place to another. It's meant to be filled with soil and cut where it's high and fill where it's low, so it smooths localized irregularities, but is not so great at taking a hill over there and using it to fill a valley 50+ feet away. I found scoop-drive-dump to be more effective. I also find the box scraper to not work so well with rocky soil. The box blade and grader blade are great for finishing work, but not for rough work.

Net result is that we were able to do a nice job and my wife now really appreciates the tractor and even insisted on using it for a while - something I never thought I would see - but I'm getting side tracked.... What I was getting to is that even our relatively modest job took us 3 days and it sounds like you are facing much more.

Here's another thought you might consider, if you haven't already - what about putting in a french drain the length of the low spot and empty it into the stream? Basically drain the wet area rather than backfill it. This of course assumes that the low area is still above the water level in the stream. Best part is that you'd have the justification to get that Backhoe!

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by hayden on 07/13/01 09:33 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[radman]

Glenmac;
The picture posted by knight is what I have except mine also has two dolly wheels in the front to carry the weight, rather than the weight being carried on the drawbar or lift arms. The units with the front dolly wheels are better since the weight of the dirt is not transfered to the drawbar. The load can get too heavy for the drawbar. On larger units, that are attached to the drawbar, you can also use a chain attached to the lift arms to help reduce the tongue weight. The chain then runs under the tongue and helps support the weight on the drawbar. The heavier the scraper the better it digs. They also dig better with a partial load due to the additional weight. I have seen some rental places have these. A 4 WD 2710 or 2910 would probably work if the ground is not too hard.

 

[radman]

hayden;
yes, with the soil mover (scraper) it is much easier to control the depth of cut with than a loader and they dig much better. They also carry more and have the advantage of smoothly spreading out the dirt once it is transfered. My brother has a 5 yd soil mover that also has a pto driven paddle which moves the dirt from the front to the back just like the big units. His 5 yd scraper is very heavy and requires a fairly sizeable tractor. The 5 yd scraper will dig in most soil and has teeth on the cutting edge. The limiting factor, like on the big units, is traction and power.

 

[gordon]

Glenn there are a few different things to consider before under taking this project. First when dealing with a creek of any kind you have to be careful of any dirt washing back into the creek as your work progresses. Bales of straw or fabric will help with this problem. That is up to you how you handle this. But it's the major consideration before pushing any dirt. Ok with that said lets get down to the real deal.

Your talking about a large amout of ground to cover. But it might not be that much if you dig some channels with your blade first and let those low spots dry out some. Remember if you have 9 parts of dirt to one part of mud it is = to ten parts of mud once you drive over it a few times.

Once you have some dry area to work from then use the front end loader and get some side plates for your rear blade. That way you can double you dirt load each pass. A rear blade with side plates is like a boxblade with no teeth.

Just my two cents
Gordon

 

[Alan L.]

Thats a lot of dirt to move with a 2910 unless you have lots of time. You can hire the big equipment to get it all done right to the tune of about 90 cents per cubic yard of dirt moved. With all those big bucks you're no doubt pulling down as a tax attorney you should consider using what little free time you have doing other fun stuff on the tractor. I spent $15K on my place at 90 cents a yard and I couldn't have moved that dirt in several years with my tractor. Took 2 guys 8 days with a scraper, grader, and bulldozer. They dug a 1.5 acre tank (pond) 10 to 12 feet deep and used the spoils to build a road bed and building pad, plus divert the water from about 12 acres into the tank. Beautiful work, except I lost my topsoil in the process. Be sure you have them push the topsoil over into a pile and then apply it to the top when done. Or do this yourself if you use the 2910. Be prepared to spend every weekend for the next few years to complete the project if you do it yourself.

Alan L., TX

 

[Alan L.]

The guys that did my dirt work had a 14-yard scraper. It was awesome. I took off work a day and watched them like a little kid. The scraper was pulled by a large JD tractor with duel rear wheels - I think it was 240 HP. The ground was very hard and dry but the scraper still dug just fine. The owner said he preferred it that way because once you get down in the tank (pond) any moisture makes for slick conditions and its hard to pull that big scraper. When you look where the scraper had been, until they got real deep it was like a shiny marble top of compacted dry clay. That thing could really dig.

To do the tank he went in circles, digging in the pond and spreading it on the dam. The way the did my tank it doesn' have that tall dam with steep backside you see sometimes. The water comes up to within 18" or so of the top of the dam and then the backside slopes very gradually. The result is that my tank looks more natural and less like a man-made impoundment. I'm extremely happy with it and was very happy with all the rain we got in the spring that filled it up. We stocked it last month, and have enjoyed swimming in it too.

He only used the grader for smoothing my roadbed and the gravel on the road. Made me want to go out and get a regular blade that you can angle (can't do that with the box blade) but my box blade has maintained the road just fine.

The bulldozer he used mainly for clearing trees. He said the scraper ran circles around the dozer for pond building.

He did underestimate the power of my little 2710 though. He didn't think I could smooth out the heavy clay, but I have not had any trouble doing what I need to do in terms of smoothing with the box blade, including fixing DEEP ruts in the fill caused by heavy semi rigs full of gravel who tried to turn around on my pad.



Alan L., TX