rototiller vs. plow

[gemini5362]

Even at 1 acre, I would do the 3pt, anything close to or over that, it would be no question. Unless your doing an already tilled area or you have a lot of extra time, even a decent size rear tine simplicity took me 4 times as long as it did with a 3pt. tiller I rented.

This was on an overgrown (heavy think weeds, no trees) area that I attempted with my front tine tiller, after an hour I gave up and barrowed the neighbors rear tine, no question that it was much easier. However after 4 hours and only being half done I decided to add a tiller to the rental I already needed for another project and finished the other half in about an hour.

Now that own my own tractor, I will own a 3pt tiller. My neighbors rear tine walk behind was around $1,000 so an extra few hundred will be more than worth it and even better over time...

Not saying that a rear tine won't perform as good in some conditions, however the overgrown area that I tilled sold me on the 3pt.

On a whole acre of ground to till I would agree with you 100 per cent. In a later post he said there was a house on the acre which probably means some kind of landscaping also. He is only wanting to till a vegetable garden and maybe till up if he needs to do some other kind of vegetation I am assuming that is for something like flower beds probably. He has not posted the size of the space he is going to till but it obviously will be less than an acre. I just bought a new tiller for flower beds I did not buy the rear tine tiller because I needed something more maneuverable. I bought it at atwoods while they were having a 20 per cent off sale. The most expensive tiller they had was 800 dollard and if you can catch it on sale that is under 650.00. While the 3 point tiller would be great to have if he has any kind of limitations like being close to a fence or working around landscaping the rear tine might be a better option for him.

 

[gemini5362]

13 ac.. and I have a 15' mower... But I got it for super cheap.. IE.. 2000$.. that's pennies on the dollar vs the cost of one new... All it took me was a couple months of sweat equity, some welding and a couple hundred bucks in small parts and paint.. etc. it was a deal i couldn't pass up, sinc eit was roughly? 1/8 the price of new equipment.

soundguy

I knew that I was just funning with you. I am just very jealous. I have 25 acres and if I could get a really good deal on a 15 foot bat wing and a tractor big enough to pull it with I would have one.

 

[Soundguy]

I knew that I was just funning with you. I am just very jealous. I have 25 acres and if I could get a really good deal on a 15 foot bat wing and a tractor big enough to pull it with I would have one.

I lucked out on both.. I got the NH7610s as a return. Guy had an orchard.. bought the tractor.. kept running the fender into branches, and the canopy hit a branch or two as well.. tractor was a lil over a year old, and had a few hundred hours on it.. he brought it back and traded for a TC48 smaller machine.. easier to maneuver. i got the 7610s with a crumpled up 9 but straightened out ) fender.. and a dent in the canopy.. I saved about 9000$ off new price.. plus i traded a 3yr old NH 1920 CUT i had bought from that dealer used 2ys before.. and got 95% of my money back in trade on the 1920.. I only had to pay about 8000$ out of pocket on the 7610s.. so i felt great about that... cheap 95 hp tractor... I originally got a 10' howse HD mower, brand new, still unassembled, 2ys old, from an auction for 2250$.. and mowed with that.. then 'fell over' the 15' mower ( 1998 model JD 1517 ) from a horse farm that was getting all new mowers... It needed only maintenance and some small weld repairs.. lube, paint .. etc.. got it for 2000$ plus the? 200$ parts... etc... If it weren't for that.. i'd still be mowing with the 1920 and 5' mower!

soundguy

 

[mattellis2]

On a whole acre of ground to till I would agree with you 100 per cent. In a later post he said there was a house on the acre which probably means some kind of landscaping also. He is only wanting to till a vegetable garden and maybe till up if he needs to do some other kind of vegetation I am assuming that is for something like flower beds probably. He has not posted the size of the space he is going to till but it obviously will be less than an acre. I just bought a new tiller for flower beds I did not buy the rear tine tiller because I needed something more maneuverable. I bought it at atwoods while they were having a 20 per cent off sale. The most expensive tiller they had was 800 dollard and if you can catch it on sale that is under 650.00. While the 3 point tiller would be great to have if he has any kind of limitations like being close to a fence or working around landscaping the rear tine might be a better option for him.

i went back and forth on this a long time. unfortunately, the troy-bilt tiller sized for anything over 2000 square feet runs about $2k. i finally settled on a 5' KK II from TSC. i may watch craig's list or the like for a small used rear tine for use as a cultivator.

-matt

 

[Cyberroc]

He is only wanting to till a vegetable garden and maybe till up if he needs to do some other kind of vegetation I am assuming that is for something like flower beds probably.

And I sir, would agree with you as well.

I could never justify the purchase of 3pt for small veg of flower garden and I was speaking of anything close to a full acre of tilling.

I don't mind walk behind tilling (owned one for the past 10 years), even for a 4 hour job it was actually not that bad other than the aftershake for 30 minutes after finishing

That said... Once I get ready to do the acre or more we are planning to till I will have a 3pt and don't see the walk behind getting much work after that.
.
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[LBrown59]

( kubota BX series? )
it will rototill all day long.. etc.

soundguy

MY BX1500 and 48'' KK are a great team.

I don't do me a garden.

 

[Soundguy]

I have a neighbor with a ford 1210.. it's a scut small ford.. he doesn't do big work fast with it.. but it serves him all day.. never gives out.. pulls a 4' mower with it.. etc..

soundguy

 

[LBrown59]

On the flip side take a small scut.. maybee something with pto hp in the teens ( kubota BX series? ).. but a good creeper gear... it will rototill all day long.. etc.

soundguy

My BX1500 an the 48'' tiller make a nice pair.

 

[Soundguy]

Yep.. them tractors with creeper gears really like those rototillers.

soundguy

 

[gemini5362]

And I sir, would agree with you as well.

I could never justify the purchase of 3pt for small veg of flower garden and I was speaking of anything close to a full acre of tilling.

I don't mind walk behind tilling (owned one for the past 10 years), even for a 4 hour job it was actually not that bad other than the aftershake for 30 minutes after finishing

That said... Once I get ready to do the acre or more we are planning to till I will have a 3pt and don't see the walk behind getting much work after that.
.
.

Actually the whole story was I went into atwoods to get the small front tine tiller. They had a 20 per cent sale on like I mentioned and then they told me if I would get a credit card they would give me another 10 per cent on top of that. Now we are talking about real money. I looked at the rear tine tillers and how much more of a discount that 30 per cent of one of those would be versus 30 per cent of the tiller I was looking at. Then I got to thinking how much 30 per cent of the 50 inch 3 point tiller they had in the tractor equipment section would be. It was almost like free money. Then I got to trying to figure out how I was going to explain to the wife that I went out to get a small front tine tiller for the new flower bed she was making and wound up with a 3 point rototiller that I would not be able to get into the place she wanted the flower bed. At that point I decided I liked having my wife speak to me better than I liked the Idea of having a rototiller. So I bought the front tine tiller. Now however we have just came back from a cruise and she found a new gem she has not seen before. it is called Ammelite (sp) She wanted to buy a new necklace and earings and ring so I told her no problem. I now can justify buying the rototiller and a couple of other play toys

 

[gemini5362]

Yep.. them tractors with creeper gears really like those rototillers.

soundguy

Soundguy you talk about creaper gears. I have a kubota b6100 with a high low range and 3 forward gears. The low range 1st gear on it is fairly slow. I have a montana 4940 with high, low and creaper 4 gears in each range. When you put it in creaper 1st gear you almost have to strain to notice the tires move.

What are you defining as creaper gears ?

 

[Soundguy]

Anything that gets you less than 1mph at pto speed is pretty good... can't do that on a ford 4spd.. they are geared too high.. no hard and fast definition of creeper.. other than.. just creeping along..

soundguy

 

[ChuckinNH]

well, I am another one who has been enlightened by this thread. I somehow thought that turning plows would leave less hard pan than a tiller too........ and I had heard the term "plow pan" when I was young. My walk behind Troy Built will turn cover crops under, but it takes more patience than the advertisments show, and often some time spent cutting wound up vegetation from the tines. I doubt that it actually tills as deeply as it seems either since much of the "depth" is the fluffed up material on the top. I do really like the tiller though ( had it 20 years). I'm sure that no tilling is better for the soil in many cases, but I haven't figured out how to have cover crops, and add organic material without tilling.

 

[Soundguy]

You can only turn so deep.. etc.

soundguy

 

[Rara Avis]

well, I am another one who has been enlightened by this thread. I somehow thought that turning plows would leave less hard pan than a tiller too........ and I had heard the term "plow pan" when I was young. My walk behind Troy Built will turn cover crops under, but it takes more patience than the advertisments show, and often some time spent cutting wound up vegetation from the tines. I doubt that it actually tills as deeply as it seems either since much of the "depth" is the fluffed up material on the top. I do really like the tiller though ( had it 20 years). I'm sure that no tilling is better for the soil in many cases, but I haven't figured out how to have cover crops, and add organic material without tilling.

Video: Vegetable Farmers and their Sustainable Tillage Practices

 

[Farmwithjunk]

well, I am another one who has been enlightened by this thread. I somehow thought that turning plows would leave less hard pan than a tiller too........ and I had heard the term "plow pan" when I was young. My walk behind Troy Built will turn cover crops under, but it takes more patience than the advertisments show, and often some time spent cutting wound up vegetation from the tines. I doubt that it actually tills as deeply as it seems either since much of the "depth" is the fluffed up material on the top. I do really like the tiller though ( had it 20 years). I'm sure that no tilling is better for the soil in many cases, but I haven't figured out how to have cover crops, and add organic material without tilling.

The first documented studies on no till farming were done at the University of Kentucky starting in the 1950's, finally being completed in the mid 60's. They found that ANY form of tillage resulted in soils finally being MORE compacted than they were before the tillage. Some had immediate effects. Moldboard plowing and discing being the worst immediate offenders. Since the 2 were almost always used in conjunction with each other, the tried and true method of farming was on its way to obselescence.

Chisel plows followed by field cultivators offered BETTER results, but they had to be pulled by heavy high horsepower tractors. That undid what advantages the improved techniques had to offer.

The final development in tillage was the mulch tiller or disc chisel. They were essentially a single pass tillage system that combined several implements. They required big hp input relative to width. With the advent of high horsepower tractors in the 70's and beyond, these implements found great popularity in big scale farming.

Tillers are generally limited in operating depth. They also suffer hp-to-width limitations (resulting in high cost per acre/slow seedbed prep per hour) prevented the tiller from catching on for large scale cropping.

No till works BEST when used in areas where there is a good freeze/thaw cycle. Ground "heaves" naturally in freezing weather. Combine that with other naturally occuring phenomenon, and soils "un-compact" themselves in time. By limiting the number of times a tractor needs to be used on a given parcel of land during no till farming, that source of compaction is REDUCED. (spray and plant, as opposed to plow, disc 2 or 3 times, plant, spray) The worst compaction offender still in the plan is when harvest time comes along. Giant heavy combines and big tractors pulling heavy grain carts cause issues. Recent use of GPS farming has enabled yields to be accurately monitored in areas where the grain carts run along field edges and headlands to show where yields are reduced dramatically in these compacted tracks.

No tilling has had a difficult time catching on in northern climates. Cold soil responds well to being turned to warm and dry it in spring time planting conditions. No tilling takes a few years to allow soil structures to modify on their own. Some farmers want that immediate gratification. They give up on no till in a season or two when yields don't immediately top what they had with old techniques. When I was still farming, it took 4 years before my no till yields matched those when I practiced conventional tillage. After those 4 seasons, yields began to climb. In a total of 7 years, my yields were averaging nearly 40% better than the last few years of conventional tillage.

In recent years a new method has began to emerge. Strip tillage. Row crops are grown in a narrow strip of tilled soil that is worked to extreme depths. Areas in between the crop rows are left untilled.

Bottom line is, there is NO prefect way. Do ANYTHING with soil/land, and you disturb nature. The goal is to MINIMIZE that disturbance in the best way possible with the conditions at hand. Pick your poison. Then dedicate your efforts to making THAT work to the best of its potential.

 

[GCLnIndiana]

And all the people said...."Amen."

 

[Charlesaf3]

on the 3pt vs walk behind tiller question, I have both. Even for flowerbeds I use the 3pt - the walk behind gets very little use. In many situations I'd take a 3 pt tiller over a walk behind every day. Much better traction, much easier to have the tractor fight the tiller rather than me.

 

[White Shark]

When subsoiling, you want to pull the implement in Fall when the soil is the driest. You don't want to pull it through wet soil, you want to shatter the soil and displace it as much as possible, thereby breaking the plow pan. You should subsoil at 2-3 mph and you'll experience about 80% efficiency on your machine when correctly sized as indicated later in this post. Increase or decrease your speed and efficiency will suffer.

Now that you have the basics, you'll want to get your hands on a subsoiler/ripper. These are implements that take a lot of horsepower to pull effectively. You are essentially dragging an anchor through a resistant medium.

Here's how to calculate the amount of HP you need to pull a subsoiler/ripper:

What is your drawbar horsepower?

This formula is subsoiler/ripper specific.


DBHP = (NS)(UDS)(DO)(S)÷375

Where:
DBHP = Drawbar Horsepower (same as if you were to mount on a 3 point hitch)
NS = Number of subsoiler shanks
UDS = Unit draft per shank per foot of operating depth (lbs per foot of depth)(refer to UDS chart below)
DO = Depth of operation of the subsoiler
S = Speed


UDS Chart (Units of draft per foot / resistance per foot of shank in ground)

Light Soil - 840 lbs. per shank per foot of depth
Medium Soil - 1200 lbs. per shank per foot of depth
Heavy Soil - 1920 lbs. per shank per foot of depth


Let's say that you are pulling a single 2 foot shank in light soil at 2.5 mph.

That would be:
DBHP = (NS)(UDS)(DO)(S)÷375
or
DBHP = (1)(840)(2)(2.5)÷375
or
DBHP = 11.2

How about a heavy soil?
DBHP = (1)(1920)(2)(2.5)÷375
or
DBHP = 25.6


The formula is pretty accurate. It's hard to see that with a single ripper on a really low horsepower machine (<35 hp), but when you use a 3 shank subsoiler on the back of a CAT Challenger 45, you can see that the numbers are really solid. This formula will allow you to size your machine correctly while maintaining optimal performance in large scale field operations. That will save money on the small jobs too. It's important to not come in underpowered, or to use a machine that has too much power...unless you don't mind burning a lot of expensive diesel... Calculating the numbers out to begin with, will help you before you ever get in the seat.




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