Rough start in cold weather on Bransons

[gldwing57]

Have been asking some questions on the Cummin's Engines and it would seem as though anyone who has one or knows of one that they start hard in colder weather. I have a 3510i .. Even the dealer has admitted this to me.
I think Cummin's should look into the starting problem and make some changes.I had a Kioti 30 HST before this one and it would fire right up without all the stumbling and misfiring until it got going.
I think it is something we will have to live with unless Cummins changes something in the Engine Start Up Procedure. I see this morning my thermometer is reading - 15 C or +04 F. I usally turn the Glow Plugs on about 4 times before trying to start it. That seems to help a lot. I think the Glow Plugs are not hevy enough to put enough heat into the cyclinder to warm it up properly. I talked to a mechanic friend of mine out west and he said they are having the same problems with the 3 cyclinder Cummins Engines . They use them for running Generators. So I don't feel so bad now knowing this is built into other engines I guess. Once up and running you could not ask for a better running tractor.
My thoughts on it anyway..
The Fox

My 3510 came with block heater, and as long as you plugged it in for a while it started like summertime. The blockheater went bad and I did have a littel problem with starting but would usually cycle glow plugs 4 times and it did ok. I replaced the bad block heater and now again it starts like summertime

 

[the fox 1940]

I'm sorry, I meant to say "without cycling the glow plugs more than once".
The reason I asked was because I only cycle the glow plugs once, then start the tractor. It will run a little rough for 5 seconds or so and then straighten out. Your climate is much colder than mine though.

Are there other diesel engines out there that do not run a little rough on start up (when very cold)? I thought that was something that they all did.

Mark

Never tried starting the engine without cycling the Glow Plugs. I feel that is to hard on an engine to do that ..If I cycle the Glow Plugs once it will stumble around for about 20 seconds and it starts off hard. Being a Mechanic
I have metal sysmpahy for that kind of stuff.
No my Kioti would start up and run smooth after turning the Glow Plugs on about 3 times.But this Tractor is different I guess. I get it running but I don't like to see it start up rough.. But they tell me the Cummin's engines start with a stumble and blow smoke on these tractors until they clear them selves up . So I'll live with it. Just take a few more minutes longer cycling the Glow Plugs longer.
The Fox

 

[52wej]

Fox, I have a Century 2535, which is the same as the 3510, although mine may be an earlier model. It has the Kukje engine which is just prior to the cummins (made by kukje i think). Yes I have to cycle my glow plugs a couple of times when the temp is in the teens. It takes 10 to 15 secconds to eliminate the roughness. But the important thing is that it will start. I have spent too many cold mornings #$%&#ing at old ford farm tractors that refused to start unless you added either. You are correct about what you are accustomed to. Many of these engines are indirect injection which does not start as well as a direct injection engine. I think there are some threads in some of the forums that expalin the difference. Willie Jones

 

[Reg]

You can disconnect the wire to the buss bar and check resistance from the buss bar to ground.
Only trouble with that is you will be checking all four (three for the smaller engines) in parallel - so unless you have a GOOD meter it is going to look like a dead short.

Also, one slightly high resistance one won't really show.

So Ya kinda need to take the buss bar off and check them all separately anyway.
Once you've done that a natural part of putting it all back together is to put it all back CLEAN, that is clean in the electrical resistance sense.
Wire brush, silicon dielectric gel, etc.
====
Here's a thing about SMALL diesel engines;
The cylinders have a fairly large surface area to volume ratio.
What that means is;
a) the heat generated by compression isn't very much to begin with
b) there is a (relatively) large area of metal to conduct it away from where the air/fuel mixture is supposed to go bang.

Do the arithmetic if you like;
Calculate the volume of some cylinder, whatever bore and stroke you decide.
Figure the surface area at TDC, given some reasonable compression ratio.
Divide the surface area by the volume.

Now do the same arithmetic with double the diameter, double the stroke and the same CR.
The larger cylinder will have 8 times the volume and 4 times the internal surface area, so it's area to volume ratio will be 1/2 that of the smaller cylinder.
Net result, less loss of the heat of compression.

This is PART of the reason that small engines need glow plugs and why they can still be hard to start and/or run roughly until they warm up a bit.

Also most of the reason that a 3 cylinder engine starts easier and runs smoother sooner than a 4 cylinder engine of approx the same displacement.

 

[the fox 1940]

You can disconnect the wire to the buss bar and check resistance from the buss bar to ground.
Only trouble with that is you will be checking all four (three for the smaller engines) in parallel - so unless you have a GOOD meter it is going to look like a dead short.

Also, one slightly high resistance one won't really show.

So Ya kinda need to take the buss bar off and check them all separately anyway.
Once you've done that a natural part of putting it all back together is to put it all back CLEAN, that is clean in the electrical resistance sense.
Wire brush, silicon dielectric gel, etc.
====
Here's a thing about SMALL diesel engines;
The cylinders have a fairly large surface area to volume ratio.
What that means is;
a) the heat generated by compression isn't very much to begin with
b) there is a (relatively) large area of metal to conduct it away from where the air/fuel mixture is supposed to go bang.

Do the arithmetic if you like;
Calculate the volume of some cylinder, whatever bore and stroke you decide.
Figure the surface area at TDC, given some reasonable compression ratio.
Divide the surface area by the volume.

Now do the same arithmetic with double the diameter, double the stroke and the same CR.
The larger cylinder will have 8 times the volume and 4 times the internal surface area, so it's area to volume ratio will be 1/2 that of the smaller cylinder.
Net result, less loss of the heat of compression.

This is PART of the reason that small engines need glow plugs and why they can still be hard to start and/or run roughly until they warm up a bit.

Also most of the reason that a 3 cylinder engine starts easier and runs smoother sooner than a 4 cylinder engine of approx the same displacement.

Good discription of how it all works... You are right in saying the smaller engine do have things fighting agianst it in starting.
But like 52WEJ has said they are built different and have a different injection system in them for sure.
But you know the simple answer to all this is to put a block heater in them and that would be the end of the problem
I lived out west for 35 years and I have seen many cars not start unless they were plugged in. Nothing wants to work at -40F below. Tires are square
and the rear ends are froze up and won't even turn.
I think I'll get a Block Heater and that will make it easier on the engine and not only that, it will save seals and bearing from failing. The other morning the oil in the Power Steering was so cold the wheels would not turn for a good 5 or 6 minutes untill the oil warmed up. It was cold out for sure.

Have checked and found that all 3 Glow Plugs are working doing it the
way you have said in your note.Tractor only has 10 hours on it.
The Fox

 

[wiskydelta]

It was 5 degrees out yesterday, I had both of my 4x4's burried in snowdrifts in the driveway, my 2910 absolutly refused to start, finally had to resort to a shot of ether, it started then. I'm going to look at the busbar thing this weekend. Any opinions on how bad/hard it is for the engine taking a shot of ether?

 

[jonyyuma]

I bet you aren't used to being in snow very much. Ether should be used lightly. I have seen holes in pistons and bent rods from dumping a can into the manifold. His reason," if a little works then the whole can should do better?"Thats not how it works and there is not lubrication in ether. Wd 40 has worked for me in the past and it does lubricate. 2cents. Jy.

 

[wiskydelta]

I just bought a inline heater made by Budd companies (called ZeroStart). What I liked about it, its all metal not cheap plastic. I got it on ebay. Putting it in this weekend. See if that helps my smoke issues.

Can you tell us more, is it a block heater or radiator heater, do you have the part number, is it solving the starting problems?
TIA

 

[Reg]

It was 5 degrees out yesterday, I had both of my 4x4's burried in snowdrifts in the driveway, my 2910 absolutly refused to start, finally had to resort to a shot of ether, it started then. I'm going to look at the busbar thing this weekend. Any opinions on how bad/hard it is for the engine taking a shot of ether?

Not "Good" for it.
I've used "starter fluid" {that the can doesn't admit to being ether (-: }
I've also used gasoline, probably not good either, but have had many miles since with no apparent ill effect.

Here's an idea that MIGHT work;
Based on the fact that some recent truck diesels preheat the air it might be worth running a hair dryer into your air cleaner's intake for a few minutes.
If you can get a helper to hold it while you crank the engine that could be even better.

Of course you would need extension cords long enough to get to it, but that is also true for block or lower hose heaters.

Disclaimer; this is just an idea, I have never tried it, I only just thought of it.
I might try it if/when my tractor won't start.
I would probably use it on the fuel filter/water separator too.

I think your best bet is still the bus bar.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Here's an idea that MIGHT work;
Based on the fact that some recent truck diesels preheat the air it might be worth running a hair dryer into your air cleaner's intake for a few minutes.
If you can get a helper to hold it while you crank the engine that could be even better.

Of course you would need extension cords long enough to get to it, but that is also true for block or lower hose heaters.

Disclaimer; this is just an idea, I have never tried it, I only just thought of it.

I think that would work almost instantly. The 7520 uses a 500W preheater in the manifold. I only have to use it below about 30F, but it is very effective. Warming an abundance of intake air like a hair dryer, along with glow plugs should really help. :thumbsup:
larry