RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter

   / RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter #51  
I was talking to a friend. He claims that a pressed in block heater is not uncommon and has been used in certain vehicles for a very long time, including freightliner. I don't get it. Why not employ a fifty cent fastener?
 
   / RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter #52  
Hold on there fellas, it never shut down. Sorry if I gave that impression, but I didn't think I said anything to indicate that it shut down. No, it just lost power. Driving across a flat road it would not drive in 4th gear high range like it had before. I had to downshift to 3rd and even then the rpm's wouldn't get much above 2k.
About 20 minutes ago I went into my dealer's service manager's office and talked with him about getting the compression tested. He agreed to it, and since I negotiated travel expenses for warranty work into the purchase, it will be entirely on their dime. Only thing I don't like is he wants to bring the tractor there to do it. I'd rather be there to see the reading myself, or at least have an independent 3rd party do it. That might void the warranty though?

I wrote a reply to this thread/post earlier and then it disappeared when I went to edit it. Anyway, your issue is somewhat bigger than you know. THere is a recent thread that I'll link you to, which briefly describes what you had happen except in this poster's situation his engine did die. Basically from what I can discern he had a block heater installed on his low hour Kioti and it blew out onto the ground which caused upper end valve train parts failure. His problem seemed to be a result of having happened AFTER factory warranty had expired. Neither he, nor any of us, to my knowledge, had ever heard of this having happened on a Kioti to date, but now that you have also experienced this type of failure, AND your dealer's shop mechanic asked you to open the hood, it tells me they are aware of this kind of situation, and maybe due to it having happened to other Kioti tractors in their shop.

If I were you I'd skip the compression test because if it comes up within range you may end up with no help. A compression test at this low hours likely won't tell you what you need to know. The cylinder wall or piston damage, unless it were severe, or wall bluing via excessive heat would only be visible through other more specific tests with engine disassembly necessary to make a definite diagnosis.
If you're going to make a case for a different engine or complete tractor, NOW is the time to do so. If you're going to keep this one have them remove the block heater and replace the factory freeze plug. Make sure to keep the defective B. heater. You definitely do NOT want the existing one to blow out again, which it very well could at any time during it's life. It's IMHO even more likely to do so since it already failed miserably.

I've owned two DK series over the last 10 years and both have block heaters, neither of which have I ever used. Granted they live on a radiant heated barn floor and were both installed by my dealer without request on my part.

I suspect, as your dealer's field tech mentioned, something is wrong as to the mating of the block heater adapter sleeve diameter and the block's actual dimension(s). It's also possible since this is not an isolated instance on several (?) Kioti's recently, that the plug manufacturer and Kioti are working to find the answer to which it is. This is another reason a case with Kioti should be started regarding your specific tractor. The more cases they have to investigate, the sooner they will have to solve the problem.
Consider your dealer's mechanic took no time to point you to opening the hood- indicating he knew what the most likely outcome was to your issue. The field tech didn't hesitate to know how to remedy the problem and spoke of others they'd seen. They clearly understand the problem; which begs the question of why they continue to install these block heaters?

Here's the link to the other thread where none of us had enough info from the owner to make an absolute diagnosis. I will say that I speculated that the B. heater was installed recently or as in that OP's situation the heater was the cause of the problem. When it blew out the top end of the engine's heat soared to unsustainable temps and parts then failed, trashing the engine beyond repair. You clearly don't want to faced with this outcome during OR past warranty.

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/406244-update-rx6010-low-hours-motor.html

Note there are actually 2 threads about this issue on this OP's tractor. Seek out the 2nd one around the date of the first one.

As already stated by others, document all emails, name and numbers of who you speak with and when. ONLY things in writing are worth anything, NO verbal agreements with your dealer of Kioti Corporate. I would also let Kioti know about the other thread I linked you too. They need to know this type of case is being watched closely by Kioti owners. This is good for everyone to know we're all on the same page. Good luck, post back any questions, etc.

CM
 
   / RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter #53  
It sounds more like you are talking about a reactor melting down. Maybe I don't know enough about it to give input, but I know many engines run out of coolant and are not immediately destroyed. Oil does a lot of cooling in an engine. And again, the ambiant temperature was cold.

I would "think" that if damage was done, you would notice it more after you let the tractor cool down and restarted it.

It would be nice if someone who knows exactly how that engine is designed with it's electronics and probably computers, could say how the machine would loose power in this scenereo. This is shear speculation, but it almost seems like the machine sensed something amiss and went into some kind of a limp mode.

ALSO. Contrary to what people have tried to convince me of, most of us rarely watch a temperature gauge, unless we are having some trouble. So usually, we only realize we have a catasrophic problem when it's too late, and again, most of the time the engine isn't totally ruined.
 
   / RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter #54  
The point is it is new and paid for as new...
Have you ever bought a new tractor at new price and have it overheated at 7hrs at the fault of the dealer to were it had a partilal seize and felt that that was ok?

I don't like to type, the temp sender does not run off steam or air...You don't get it.
 
   / RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter #55  
@Partyhound-

I'm really sorry to hear about your trouble. As Coyote Machine said, a similar issue came up here recently. The owner was out of warranty, but still with very low hours. He was upset that Kioti wouldn't help him out. He got an earful from some folks on this forum saying he was out of warranty and shouldn't expect any help. Apart from some photos and a few comments, he never gave sufficient details for folks to take him seriously. This looks eerily similar. As frustrating and disappointing as this is for you, I think the fact that it happened with so few hours on the tractor is good. A brand new tractor costing north of $40k should not be doing this. I'm not sure what it would take to make me comfortable. Perhaps different tractor (same make/model) with no block heater. Or perhaps different brand all together.

As you know I've got the exact same machine, with block heater. I've attached a picture of my heater install, done by the dealer. No bracket. Please keep us posted with how this develops. I wish you the best of luck. blockHeater.jpg
 
   / RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter #56  
It sounds more like you are talking about a reactor melting down. Maybe I don't know enough about it to give input, but I know many engines run out of coolant and are not immediately destroyed. Oil does a lot of cooling in an engine. And again, the ambiant temperature was cold.

I would "think" that if damage was done, you would notice it more after you let the tractor cool down and restarted it.

It would be nice if someone who knows exactly how that engine is designed with it's electronics and probably computers, could say how the machine would loose power in this scenereo. This is shear speculation, but it almost seems like the machine sensed something amiss and went into some kind of a limp mode.

ALSO. Contrary to what people have tried to convince me of, most of us rarely watch a temperature gauge, unless we are having some trouble. So usually, we only realize we have a catasrophic problem when it's too late, and again, most of the time the engine isn't totally ruined.

Sorry, I'm speaking directly to the tractor owner, advising him based on my experience that whether he has 7 or 70, hours on the clock, he should walk away from this tractor engine before it bites him. Speculation is worthless for him because doing so gives him false hope that everything will be OK, BUT if it isn't he will pay a high price for time lost from use of the tractor and a solution that may not be satisfactory to him. The time to insure him of a proper fix is now, NOT when it does blow up down the road. He should not have to worry about something that can be prevented by having what he paid for: a completely new, UNDAMAGED engine and the peace of mind a brand new, never lost any coolant, never overheated engine gives an owner of a $40K machine. Kioti and his dealer need to make this right. Period!

Sensors, the control box, and other items don't stop the kind of rapid temperature rise seen in this type of failure. Aluminum heads expand and contract around 5 times faster than steel. Due to this, when you essentially drain the coolant from the side of the block you end up stressing the entire head and all its parts, at a minimum, of overall damage. That's why the other guys engine blew out the valve train and IMHO Kioti should have helped him too, even off warranty- at least from what he reported of the damage to his engine. I can't say absolutely, because there is insufficient info to study, in the other case, but the symptoms of what occurred are very similar. I'd bet my years of working on diesels on it.
 
   / RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter #57  
CM,

I think you are dead on. Take care of it right now and in my opinion that means a new tractor.

At a minimum the selling dealer should have warned the buyer about the block heater problem before installing it.
 
   / RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter #58  
the selling dealer should have warned the buyer about the block heater problem before installing it.

Agreed.. When the OP asked the dealer to install a block heater the dealer should have replied, "We can do that BUT we have had a few problems with the heaters staying put after the install" if you would like us to proceed we can do so but keep an eye on it.

The problem is the dealers are willing to take a chance on it not coming undone for the sake of losing a sale. BUT, if it does come undone and a loss of power is evident, the dealer should come get it and replace it..
 
   / RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter
  • Thread Starter
#59  
Sorry, I'm speaking directly to the tractor owner, advising him based on my experience that whether he has 7 or 70, hours on the clock, he should walk away from this tractor engine before it bites him. Speculation is worthless for him because doing so gives him false hope that everything will be OK, BUT if it isn't he will pay a high price for time lost from use of the tractor and a solution that may not be satisfactory to him. The time to insure him of a proper fix is now, NOT when it does blow up down the road. He should not have to worry about something that can be prevented by having what he paid for: a completely new, UNDAMAGED engine and the peace of mind a brand new, never lost any coolant, never overheated engine gives an owner of a $40K machine. Kioti and his dealer need to make this right. Period!

Sensors, the control box, and other items don't stop the kind of rapid temperature rise seen in this type of failure. Aluminum heads expand and contract around 5 times faster than steel. Due to this, when you essentially drain the coolant from the side of the block you end up stressing the entire head and all its parts, at a minimum, of overall damage. That's why the other guys engine blew out the valve train and IMHO Kioti should have helped him too, even off warranty- at least from what he reported of the damage to his engine. I can't say absolutely, because there is insufficient info to study, in the other case, but the symptoms of what occurred are very similar. I'd bet my years of working on diesels on it.

As of right now the plan is to get the compression checked and go from there. Are you thinking that if the compression check comes back ok, there could still be other problems?
I had thought that the bearings could have taken a beating with the pistons no longer freely moving in their bores. Also, the head could have become slightly warped which would eventually present itself as a leaky head gasket, coolant loss over time, etc. I wouldn't expect there to be any damage to the valve train, but I'm a shadetree mechanic at best so I could be missing something. I guess at this point the best I can reasonably expect to get is a compression test done to determine if any cylinder wall damage has occured. As much as I would prefer to just get a different new tractor and start over, I really would not expect that they would give in and get me a new tractor over this. I think the best I can hope for is to do whatever tests there are to determine if any damage has been done.
 
   / RX7320 problems @7 hrs on the meter #60  
Not to flog a dead horse. But. I had sleepless nights about the coolant sensor issue. When it is no longer immersed. But the Industry clearly hasn't found a problem with this. Only me, it seems (on my generator project). There are even a lot of people who have no worry about letting their expensive tractor run a PTO generator unattended.

I had two brand new vehicles that had issues, that of course really pissed me off, but unfortunately the possible fix was not acceptable. Do I want some 19 year old apprentice tearing into my new Allison Transmission? I value factory done. It's not new to me anymore if it's been worked on by the dealer. I get that, but life isn't perfect.

Fine, if they give him a new tractor. He could end up with an entirely new problem worse than the other, and there may not even be an issue with this tractor.

I would want to find out exactly what and why the sequence of events took place before I did anything else.

Good Luck. I will go now.
 

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