SAFETY!!! Couldn't turn tractor Off! Anyone experience this?

[LD1]

Was it an emergency stop device, or the standard stop device?

Aaron Z

Good question.:thumbsup: I bet it was the standard device.

Diesels always used to shut down with a pull lever that looked like a choke. Key did nothing.

With technology and evolution came the shut-off solenoid. Blowing a fuse to that would be no different than the shut-off rod on an older diesel coming loose.

 

[Volfandt]

If I remember correctly to start on my BX2230, you need PTO off, and range selector in neutral, on later tractors I think they changed to HST pedal being centered as I also do not like having to start in neurtral on a hill as only thing holding tractor is a weak park brake where in gear a runaway is very slow.

The seat switches are tied to the PTO kill circuit. If middle PTO is running then getting off seat will kill. If rear PTO is operating then getting off seat will kill the engine but the seat may also be flipped forward and the rear PTO may be operated for chipper, generator or other stationary uses. My G2160 had both a pedal and seat interlock to start and that was taken care of.

David Kb7uns

This is how my BX23 works also.

On the 00 & 30 series BX's, basically the electrically controlled safety switch circuitry has 2 jobs:
1) keep the engine from starting when:
a) the tractor is in gear
b) when the PTO clutch lever is On.

2) immediately kill the engine when:
a) when the PTO clutch lever is On and one lifts off the seat
b) when the tractor is in gear, one lifts off the seat and the HST pedal is depressed.

Theres 2 switches on the seat to do the above plus allow the rear PTO to run with the seat flipped forward (like David said above, to run pto chippers etc., off the rear PTO ONLY).

As long as the tractor is in neutral and the PTO clutch lever is off, one doesn't have to be on the seat to start a 00/30 series BX.

Kubota had to use electric's to do the above and the above is mandated by our laws so we don't hurt ourselves when operating the tractors. As we all know, a diesel doesn't need electricity to run as it's combustion is performed by it's high compression.

IMHO, the system works very well and I've yet to have a failure on my 2004 BX23 (knock on wood). That said, kubota does drop the ball in two cases regarding their safety switch implementation:
1) lack of a backup pull kill knob connected to the already present manual shutdown lever on the fuel injection pump. Altho one can reach down and grasp the lever and rotate it to shut the engine down, it is very tight and dangerously close to the spinning fan. Be VERY careful when using this option to shut the engine down in the case of an electrical failure.

2) combining the aux rear lighting circuit to the timer relay's safety switch circuit - both of which are protected by the same 20 amp fuse. If the aux light blows that fuse, you loose the ability to shut the engine down via the key switch.

hope this helps
Dave

 

[homeputter]

I would think Kubota should use a "fail safe" relay where you need power to run the tractor, but if you lost power to the relay, the tractor would shut down. Maybe because they did not want to have to keep a solenoid energized while running the tractor? There are solenoids made to be energized all the time with long life. Also, if the solenoid failed you would know immediately because you could not start the tractor or if it was running it would stop.

This was valuable information for me, because I am not familiar with diesel engines.

 

[Ken45101]

I would think Kubota should use a "fail safe" relay where you need power to run the tractor, but if you lost power to the relay, the tractor would shut down. Maybe because they did not want to have to keep a solenoid energized while running the tractor?

And maybe because the risks of a sudden shut down are very severe! Consider that when you lose power, you lose power steering, you lose power assist brakes. Now think about going down a steep hill with 4000-10000# of hay behind you and suddenly no steering and no brakes!

It could be a hillside pasture with a steep drop to a creek below, or a hill on a highway.

No, Kubota did it right!


Ken

 

[LD1]

And maybe because the risks of a sudden shut down are very severe! Consider that when you lose power, you lose power steering, you lose power assist brakes. Now think about going down a steep hill with 4000-10000# of hay behind you and suddenly no steering and no brakes!

It could be a hillside pasture with a steep drop to a creek below, or a hill on a highway.

No, Kubota did it right!


Ken

Agreed:thumbsup:

 

[rdsaustintx]

Wow. I guess the BX23 is so reliable, us owners don't lurk much here anymore. Glad to see we got this straight in 10 pages. Thank God Volfandt showed-up.

To the OP:

The BX23 fuel system uses an inline fuel shut-off solenoid on a relay timer to shut down. If you search on TBN (strongly recommended) you will find most commonly it is the relay timer, but can also be the solenoid or in wiring.

If you listen to the tractor, you can hear the relay timer turn on/off the solenoid (there are audible clicks as soon as you go past glow switch starting up and a few seconds after shutting down). You can watch the relay work with an inline ammeter. You can also just jump 12V to the solenoid to test it.

To you aspiring lawyers: A running diesel is clearly the lesser evil on a hydro tractor, not a "major design flaw".

Be patient with Kubota, because a mere mortal reading complaints like this thread started with is will be tempted to be a little, well, ah, dismissive.

Happy Tractoring, :thumbsup:

Russell in BubbaLand

 

[California]

Yeah but ... there are a couple of issues here. One is 'shutdown on unexpected loss of power', and I agree that's not good idea.

The other issue is the concept of the Big Red Switch. In some cases the operator of any equipment realizes things are out of control and wants a quick Abort Mission where everything stops. In my opinion this 'feature' should be as near 100% certain as any designer can devise.

 

[Ken45101]

The other issue is the concept of the Big Red Switch. In some cases the operator of any equipment realizes things are out of control and wants a quick Abort Mission where everything stops. In my opinion this 'feature' should be as near 100% certain as any designer can devise.

True. No mechanical or electrical thing can be 100.000% certain. As it is, letting of the HST peddle, turning the key off, or turning the PTO off are probably 99.99% certain.

Ken

 

[jgheck]

This is how my BX23 works also.

On the 00 & 30 series BX's, basically the electrically controlled safety switch circuitry has 2 jobs:
1) keep the engine from starting when:
a) the tractor is in gear
b) when the PTO clutch lever is On.

2) immediately kill the engine when:
a) when the PTO clutch lever is On and one lifts off the seat
b) when the tractor is in gear, one lifts off the seat and the HST pedal is depressed.

Theres 2 switches on the seat to do the above plus allow the rear PTO to run with the seat flipped forward (like David said above, to run pto chippers etc., off the rear PTO ONLY).

As long as the tractor is in neutral and the PTO clutch lever is off, one doesn't have to be on the seat to start a 00/30 series BX.

Kubota had to use electric's to do the above and the above is mandated by our laws so we don't hurt ourselves when operating the tractors. As we all know, a diesel doesn't need electricity to run as it's combustion is performed by it's high compression.

IMHO, the system works very well and I've yet to have a failure on my 2004 BX23 (knock on wood). That said, kubota does drop the ball in two cases regarding their safety switch implementation:
1) lack of a backup pull kill knob connected to the already present manual shutdown lever on the fuel injection pump. Altho one can reach down and grasp the lever and rotate it to shut the engine down, it is very tight and dangerously close to the spinning fan. Be VERY careful when using this option to shut the engine down in the case of an electrical failure.

2) combining the aux rear lighting circuit to the timer relay's safety switch circuit - both of which are protected by the same 20 amp fuse. If the aux light blows that fuse, you loose the ability to shut the engine down via the key switch.

hope this helps
Dave

I know this thread has gone on for sometime now and I have asked a lot of questions. Volfandt I appreciate the posting of the electrical schematic. That was very useful to me. Could you take a look at it and answer a couple more question for me. A lot of this confusion started when I tried to find out why the HST light would not go out on my BX23. You cleared up the fact that the HST switch was not put on the US tractors. Why did they put the light in then? That doesn't make much sense to me.
If you look at the schematic and trace it. It appears the way they have it wired the light would stay on once the key was turned on, since there is no switch to turn it on. That switch I believe would normally be open, which would not allow the light to illuminate. Am I correct on that? If so I should be able to put everything back together then tomorrow and be back running. This sure has been a real learning experience for me. Thanks to all that helped.

Ken 45101You made some real good points there. I agree nothing is 100% and I certainly understand your ideas about shutdown and where it would be dangerous.

CaliforniaI think there should be a big Red Switch in case a person would need it in an emergency. Especially someone that would be very unfamiliar with the tractor and they needed to shut down quickly for all kinds of reasons. I do plan on making a shut off on my tractor and making it very obvious, so someone could easily shut down this tractor if needed.

Homeputter Thanks for your input.

rdsustintx I agree with you about being patient with Kubota. Being knew to the tractor scene has been interesting. I have learned a lot through this whole episode. I have a much better understanding about why Kubota has put these safety devices on and how they work. A big frustration I had was that I was given some false information from a couple of Kubota dealers. That is why I was looking to solve a couple of problems that were really not problems in the first place. Thanks to the experience of so many of you guys on here that have helped me and others trouble shoot and share ideas, it makes things so much easier. I have shared some of the information with one of the Kubota service managers. He was unaware of some of this information and I think he was grateful for it.

 

[JWR]

My Bx2200 will not shut off when you get off and the PTO is running. It will not START with the PTO on but the PTO on will not shut it off. Most likely his BX is the same way. My older B2150 had the same knob you described to pull out for shutdown but the BX2200 does not.