saga of neat neighbor & survey

[glennmac]

Patrick,

Re honeylocust, most people would not plant the natural species, gleditsia triacanthos, because of the thorns. There is a commonly available variety that is thornless: gleditsia triacanthos inermis.

You may want to consider osage orange. Here is a horticultural analysis I posted on another thread:

<font color=blue> Summarized from Prof. Michael Dirr of the University of Geogia, the author of the "Manual of Woody Landscape Plants" (known as the "bible" in the nursery trade):

Maculara pomifera is commonly called osage-orange, hedge-apple or bois d'arc. Averages 20'-40' in height with comparable spread. National champ is 60' x 85' in Charlotte County, VA. Fast grower: 9'-12' in a 3-5 yr. period. Only females produce the large fruit, the seeds of which squirrels will eat in winter. Rot-resistant wood is used for fence posts, bows, rustic furniture and patios.

Transplants readily. "The poorer the site the better; withstands wetness, dryness, wind, extreme heat, acid and high pH conditions once established". [Sounds like a Kubota.] "Has been used for hedgerows in the plains states; not worth recommending for the residential landscape; has potential for rugged, polluted areas." The wood contains 1% 2,3,4, 5-tetrahydroxystilbene, which is toxic to a number of fungi and which may explain the wood's rot resistance.

Some almost thornless cultivars have been developed or found. One is "Wichita" a near-thornless male clone selected by John Pair of Kansas State. "White Shield" was discovered near White Sheild Creek in western Oklahoma in the 1990's. It is "the most thorn-free clone to date and has beautiful leathery lustrous dark green leaves." It has grown to over 20' in 4 years at the Raulston Arboretum in Raleigh, NC.

Thus Dirr.

According to Prof. Donald Wyman, former director of the Arnold Arboretum at Harvard, in his book "Trees for American Gardens": osage-orange is "recommended for use only in the midwest, where it seems to withstand cold winters and summer drought better than most other trees. It is used chiefly as a windbreak or hedgeplant (along fence rows) because of its unusually vigoruous growth and stout thorns and ability to withstand heavy clipping. When planted along a fence row, it quickly grows into an impenetrable thorny mass capable of confining stock throughout the year."

This is me: It's rare to find a fast-growing hardwood tree. Most fast-growers are soft. It's a novelty tree here in the East. The fruit are fun to whack with a baseball bat.</font color=blue>

 

[fishman]

The problem with locust trees is that they produce seedlings all over the place. Even one 2 feet tall has thorns 2-3" long. After being injured repeatedly while growing up around them, I count the fact that my new place doesn't have any as one of the top 10 nice things about it. My advice, freely given, is DON"T plant a locust tree fence.

European hazelnuts make a nice tall boundary. I think there was a thread about this topic a while back. Maybe somebody remembers where?

 

[patrickg]

glennmac, I thought thorns were one of the more desirable attrributes of the Locust for my application. The osage orange (what they were called in Ohio) AKA bois d'arc as they are called in Oklahoma grew wild in proliferation in Ohio and does pretty well here as well. I haven't seen then on our property but have seen them along side the road in all directions from here.

Transplants readily... Could you illucidate a bit on that topic, please? When, how? How much soil around the roots? How much of the roots, how big of a plant? What season?

When I was in Jr. HIgh a friend of mine and I were enthralled with archery and made our own arrows and bows. There being a local shortage of Yew we went for bois d'arc as good enough.

If these are planted for fencerows/hedgerows I suppose these might be available in commercial quantities. Any recommendations... bare root or what?

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

fishman, Thanks for your input, that just about clinches it, I'm probably gonna have to get me some staghorn locust! I regret that the largest ones I have are something like a foot or so in diameter but are way behind in seedling production. I don't recall seeing any thickets of locust around here, just isolated trees, of various sizes but isolated. Probably have to scout around a bit or try to find a source.

Patrick

 

[glennmac]

Perhaps you could specialize in thorny and poisonous plant hedgrows.

I was summarizing Professor Dirr. When he says transplants readily, that means there is a high survival rate, a high success rate, for transplant. This means you can be somewhat rough and sloppy in transplanting (not recommended) and you dont have to baby it afterwards.

In most places and for most trees, spring and fall are the best times to literally transplant--ie, dig out a tree and move it to another location. Backhoe would be wonderful for this.

Commercial growers usually dig in early spring and ship to nurseries at that time. Larger plants will be balled and burlapped. Smaller plants are grown and sold in containers. You can plant a b&b or container tree anytime (its the digging out part that should only be done in spring or fall).

Cruise nurseries in your area and see what they have available. If you want a large order, you usually have to place it for next digging season. You will soon find you know more about trees than most of the nursery people--just like tractors--then you can borrow or buy Dirr's books.

In my part of the country, nurseries typically charge a planting fee of 50% of the tree price. This is a wonderful justification for a backhoe and bucket forks.

With a backhoe, you could also cruise down the road and dig them up in the middle of the night. Or go over to Cowboydoc's place; he doesnt like his osages.

 

[patrickg]

glennmac, I really appreciate the time you have taken to supply me with information. Bois d'arc and or Locust sounds like the ticket or should that be thicket? Actually I wouldn't really care one way or the other about thorns and the like if I could just get a visual barrier that would be dense enough even in winter.

There is one thing... On a different topic... You didn't happen to repetitively mention the utility of a backhoe for tree work in relation to my numerous laments regarding not being able to fit one to my L4610HSTC because of the conflict with the cab? Just checking. We're still friends, either way. I've heard a rumor, unsubstantiated, to date, that an aftermarket unit might become available. Strangely, none of the major suppliers that I queried responded in the afirmative. My budget analyst approved the backhoe purchase with the tractor and most of the other inplements but unfortunately with Kubota on the L4610 it is cab or backhoe, take your pick.

Maybe I could ofer a bounty on osage orange, cash on delivery or cash when in the ground with a bonus for survival. We poor unfortunate backhoeless have to get creative. I originally got my giant forrest bamboo answering a newspaper ad that basically said, "Giant Forrest Bamboo, FREE, you dig. Long before we got all we wanted I saw through the thinly veiled plot to coopt someone to clear it out of their ground for them. Still it as a good deal. Even chunks of root mass sent up shoots. I was way more ignorant horticulturally then than now if you can believe it possible. I went to the trouble to transplant huge canes/trunks(?) Of course since it is just giant grass everything above ground sooon died but shoots sprang up like crazy. Luckily it was a clumping variety not a running variety and the daughter plants, while small, could be stepped on and snapped off like a stalk of celery and eaten if desired.

Thanks again,

Patrick

 

[glennmac]

Patrick,

Thorns are a pain. They can also puncture tractor tires.

You may want to consider an evergreen for 12 month screening. I would recommend the Leyland Cypress (Cupressocyparis leylandii). It is very fast growing (at least 3' per year), very attractive with fine, feathery foliage, makes a great hedge, is very prunable if you want, and is essentially insect and disease free. It grows in zones 6 to 10. All of Oklahoma, except for the NW corner, is in zone 6 or 7.

You should be able to buy them in 1, 3 or 7 gallon containers. (No backhoe and not much bucks needed.) Professor Dirr reports that he planted 1 gallon trees 4' apart, and in 2 years had 7' plants touching at the base ("the plant's growth rate is truly amazing").

There are several interesting cultivars available. The foliage of 'Castwellan Gold' is golden yellow instead of green. Picture this: you can have a Leyland Cypress hedge in green and yellow (which you could prune into a shape of a tractor). 'Naylors Blue' is a cultivar with bluish foliage. Sorry, no orange cultivars.

You can find horticultural sites on the net to get more info.

No, I had forgotten about your cab-hoe conflict. Surely, there is a solution. Where there is a wallet, there is a way.

 

[dmccarty]

PatrickG,

How about adding a line of black berry's along the property line with some other fast growing plant to stop the visuals. Black berry's towardsvhis line to cut down on any tresspassing. Pines grow fairly fast and for the first 10-15 years could be real thick if you planted them that way. That would give you a visual and sound barrier while the black berrys kept him out.

The land on my east and west property line was clear cut three or so years ago and has come back with whatever seeds where on the ground. The saplings, vines, briars,etc are about 5-8 feet tall and so thick I don't think I could walk through the mess if my life depended on it. I'm trying to figure out how you could get this sort of density..... It would be a good solution for a few years.

There is a fast growing hyrid poplar, I think its a poplar, that a coworker has been growing at his house. He has 6 feet of growth this year so far. I'm not sure it would give the density you need though.....

I think I would seriously consider a security system with recording devices on the exterior of your house/out buildings/etc. That way if he goes bonkers and goes after your property when you are not at home you might get some pictures that would put him away for bit. Not long but for a time.

The problem you have with a fence, living, pipe or barbed, is that he can destroy/damage it fairly easily. Especially a living fence. Got any really big rocks? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Lots of them? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif The berm is starting to sound better all the time but you know if you go that route the SOB will uses the berm to shoot into..... The rocks are sounding better and better. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

One heck of a problem to have........

Later....
Dan McCarty

 

[dmccarty]

Glennmac,

Great info, especially about the Raulston Arboretum in Raleigh. I used to go there frequently not as much as anymore now that I have work on the property. The Raulson Arboretum is one of the hidden jewels of the triangle. There are several huge hedges in the Arboretum which I'm sure is the Osage. The are very tall, thick, and nice. Very nice. I'll have to check the next time I am there....

Later...
Dan

 

[patrickg]

Dan, I hadn't thought about hanging delicious food out just over the property line as an inducement to not cross it, a novel approach. My property manager, soon after I bought the place, put out a dozen pine seedlings and a bunch of honeysuckle. Another neighbor who had cattle on my place put a fence around the plantings. Couple years later no evidence there was ever honey suckle and there were two pines left. Still two alive and one looks real healthy and will be a foot tall soon(been planted going on three years this fall). Around here I don't think you have to jump back after planting a pine to avoid being injured by a spurt of growth. The native americans didn't stake people out over pine seedlings as a form of torture.

Rocks, yeah I got rocks, big ones, maybe two or three. Not enough for a fence and not appropriate for a dead fall. I just recently trenched for a conduit of data wires, three extra phone lines and 20 conductors for sensors and data. This is the intertie between my shop and my mom's house re security systems. Did I mention, once upon a time I designed custom alarm systems? Intertie allows me to alarm my mom's house for motion, entry, fire, smoke, etc with no increase in the monthly monitoring fee. Nearly 500 ft of trench and buried conduit, mostly 3-4 1/2 ft deep but always over 2 ft deep and nary a rock. Only rock in the entire run was small gravel on the surface as I crossed a preexisting driveway.

I do not deny that rocks used in an appropriate manner would solve the problem B U T a catapult of the size required to employ rocks of sufficient size would probably be noticed.

As far as growing a barrier goes, I think I will take a bit of a shotgun approach and plant several species and then plant proportionately more of whatever works. I would like to get the name of the hybrid poplar as that would add variety. A friend of mine told me several years ago about a brushy tree like plant from Australia that was noted for the amount of biomass or carbon or fuel value (don't recall his figure of merit) it would amass in a short time with little moisture and poor soil. The idea was to plant a few acres of it and harvest them in rotation for a perpetual fuel supply. I think harvest was heavy pruning not destruction. That might be worth it to look up.

I guess I should have mentioned that great height is not a help. Density in the first 8 ft is what I need. If I could grow a sight barrier from the ground to 7-8 ft I would be willing to give it say, 50 ft width to develop an effective visual barrier. Of course if there were enough mass in the first few vertical feet to deter heavy calibre bullets that would be a plus as the guy is none too safe with his choice of backstops or lack thereof.

Patrick (Thanks for the info)