septic field frozen

[v8only]

I currently have grass on the mound so yes, I asked my builder about the Styrofoam and he said Styrofoam wouldn't hurt insulation wise but it might not be good for the breathing of the mound as it might trap moisture, hmm i guess more bales is really my only solution?

 

[doxford jim]

I don't think you appreciate how cold it gets in Manitoba in the winter.. It's -20C or worse every night for 2 months at least. And then in March it flips almost overnight to +30C.

Tim,

Where I live we get -35C quite frequently during the winter. Mind you this year has only seen -30C for which we are thankful. Actually -40C is the coldest I have been in since living in the northern central BC (very close to Prince Goerge).

 

[doxford jim]

I currently have grass on the mound so yes, I asked my builder about the Styrofoam and he said Styrofoam wouldn't hurt insulation wise but it might not be good for the breathing of the mound as it might trap moisture, hmm i guess more bales is really my only solution?

I think you will find that the septic mound relies on evaporation as much as soaking/draining away. The septic mound as I understand it, is used for very heavy clay soils where a large amount of sand, gravel and earth are introduced to make the mound. I believe in my case, there was something like twenty dump truck and trailer loads used to make my mound. I am guessing on the total number but is around 20.
Because my soil had a very high clay content I was able to go with the septic lagoon (approx. 60' x 100' x 6'deep). It works well and should have been much cheaper to install (very long story, three years to sort out and court case !!).

Straw bales sound like they might be the answer for temporary control.

Regarding plans and maintenance manual - they are legally required here in BC and copies of both are filed with the local health department. It would be a good idea to see the local planning department for copies - all drawings are
submitted -= along with designs, before any approval is given to go ahead with the installation.

I strongly suspect there is a lot of BS being shovelled around over this septic system. These system are supposed to last thirty years with regular maintenance, mostly trouble free.

 

[PILOON]

I don't think you appreciate how cold it gets in Manitoba in the winter.. It's -20C or worse every night for 2 months at least. And then in March it flips almost overnight to +30C.

Gotta add that most of Quebec is about the same, this year especially cold coupled with 1/2 the normal snow accumulation.

In Montreal water mains are popping everywhere.
My pump line froze for the 2nd time in 22 years. (wise me, I installed a heated tracing wire when I did the installation)

My septic field has no more than 6-8" of topsoil coverage and no problems!
Frost level officially is 4 ft and never is a field dug that deep.

Still don't believe that the OP's field was permitted with 1 1/2" pipe network.
When pumping up to a conventional field OK, but then 2" would be a norm as that is the outlet size of effluent pumps.

I can readily appreciate a long run of piping from tank to field (especially 1 1/4" and buried shallow) being an accident looking to happen.
NO WAY can a worker uncoil 1 1/4" (any size even) for any distance and good drainage angle, well maybe 45 deg.
That tubing is like a huge coil spring.

 

[tcartwri]

Gotta add that most of Quebec is about the same, this year especially cold coupled with 1/2 the normal snow accumulation.

In Montreal water mains are popping everywhere.
My pump line froze for the 2nd time in 22 years. (wise me, I installed a heated tracing wire when I did the installation)

My septic field has no more than 6-8" of topsoil coverage and no problems!

My septic outlet broke at the foundation last winter. Didn't realize it until this christmas of course! With all these threads about deep frost, I'm thinking about my own water lines now..

 

[v8only]

Gotta add that most of Quebec is about the same, this year especially cold coupled with 1/2 the normal snow accumulation.

In Montreal water mains are popping everywhere.
My pump line froze for the 2nd time in 22 years. (wise me, I installed a heated tracing wire when I did the installation)

My septic field has no more than 6-8" of topsoil coverage and no problems!
Frost level officially is 4 ft and never is a field dug that deep.

Still don't believe that the OP's field was permitted with 1 1/2" pipe network.
When pumping up to a conventional field OK, but then 2" would be a norm as that is the outlet size of effluent pumps.

I can readily appreciate a long run of piping from tank to field (especially 1 1/4" and buried shallow) being an accident looking to happen.
NO WAY can a worker uncoil 1 1/4" (any size even) for any distance and good drainage angle, well maybe 45 deg.
That tubing is like a huge coil spring.

This is not 1-1/4" coil it is the solid drainline as seen in the attached photos on the first page.

 

[doxford jim]

They are aware of the freezing issue, i have been advised by the septic pump operator that he has not seen so many fields freezing in the past it just seems to be because of the new systems and the professionals are more worried about ground protection from the effluent then freezing protection. My contractor has been helpful but he feels he cannot make any changes to the system as it must comply (which it does) it just means more maintenance for me and i need to find a happy medium on coverage during the winter months. I do not have a system operational and maintenance manual but the contractor did come down a tell me everything i need to do to the system.


I am pretty sure that the contractor must supply a system manual and drawings for your system - that is the law in BC and I understand, the rest of the country too.
Changes can be made to the system as installed, providing the local Health Department are informed and additional drawings and description supplied to them for examination.
Again, I am of the opinion that there is a lot of "bovine manure" being shovelled here over your predicament. The owners have to be supplied with drawings, descriptions, Certificate of Compliance by the local planning department (health Department, Planning Department etc.) as it would be an illegal system without the Certificate of Compliance. An illegal system makes the owner liable to all sorts of local and provincial code violations (depending on whether the local inspectors is having a good day or not).

To cover your backside, you need to go back to the regulating authorities and push to get the drawings - they may go after the builder on your behalf. You should not be put in a position of not knowing and having to rely on the builder/installer for knowledge (serious conflict of interest here) on your brand new system.

 

[PILOON]

This is not 1-1/4" coil it is the solid drainline as seen in the attached photos on the first page.

I went back and looked, YES the field is rigid piping but what is used from the tank to the field?

I am willing to bet it is coiled black PVC and probably 1 1/2 and perhaps even 1 1/4", (I suggest 1/1/4 as many pumps are threaded for that.)

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Is it possible that there is not enough effluent going into the mound over a 24 hour period to keep the mound warm and active. Hear my thought process out. If they sized the mound for say a three bedroom 2 1/2 bath house, and say you have young kids and you and your wife work. There is no way you are moving enough effluent into the mound during the day and the night time hours. You would have to time things out so that the effluent pumps runs long enough to fill the lines and pumps some effluent into the mound. Don't have this part completely figured out, and the reason i came up with this, is because this is what i was told was going on with ours. Before I found no weep hole. I was going to basically unplug the pump, fill the tank until the over flow alarm went off then run the pump x minutes every hour. Couple of 110v relays and a timer should get it. Should be able to do all the connections at your breaker panel. Then put the 2" foam down and hay bails on top for the winter. That was going to be my solution, never got there. Kids grew up do tons of laundry, showers all the time and i started working out of the home. Ours froze first two years, have not had issues since, and if it was going to freeze it would have last year. Frost went down 56" in some places.:twocents:

 

[Patrickdozer]

If everything is to specs as far as being done properly, Id look at additional cover.

Why couldn't you add another 2 feet or so of fill over the mound and extend it out a few feet to blend better with terrain and give yourself added insulation that way. cleanout could be extended or covered.

Just a thought.

 

[PILOON]

How many are in the household?
Did the first winter freezing occur after a November field construction?
I ask as because if you live alone and the system was built in November chances are that you were pumping pure or almost pure water into the field.

Also if you use a lot of Javex and your toilets are equipped with little cleanser blocks then you are killing the bacteria that eats septic sludge and therefor probably sending pure water to the drainage field which in turn will freeze.

 

[v8only]

I have some pictures of my coverage on the field as i said i have a total of 90 bales: 4 rows on top of my field lines and spread out 2 rows on either side and 2 rows around the distribution line. Note: the second photo shows that i have moved the bales over to the left as i am trying to thaw that area with the warm sun, the bales are set up in a straight line.

There are 2 of us in the household who come from homes with fields therefore we arent really new the septic field living however this field is different as its a sand mound vs the old rock mound. The field was built in 2009 there were no issues to my knowledge with the previous owners and the first winter we moved in we had no issues, this year and last year (2 out of 3 winters) it froze, last year it froze in January this year March.

We do not use bleach/javex as we are aware of the bacteria required to keep the field warm. Our daily routines are a shower everyday each sometimes a second shower, laundry every 2 weeks (cold water washes) dishwasher every few days.

My answer maybe additional coverage however as i said earlier in one of my posts i already have 90 bales how many more do I need....the norm around here people only have maybe 20 bales, some people dont use bales and just use snow fence.....

 

[Egon]

Get some tall prairie grass growing and harvest the seeds as a byline.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

View attachment 416380View attachment 416381View attachment 416382

I have some pictures of my coverage on the field as i said i have a total of 90 bales: 4 rows on top of my field lines and spread out 2 rows on either side and 2 rows around the distribution line. Note: the second photo shows that i have moved the bales over to the left as i am trying to thaw that area with the warm sun, the bales are set up in a straight line.

There are 2 of us in the household who come from homes with fields therefore we arent really new the septic field living however this field is different as its a sand mound vs the old rock mound. The field was built in 2009 there were no issues to my knowledge with the previous owners and the first winter we moved in we had no issues, this year and last year (2 out of 3 winters) it froze, last year it froze in January this year March.

We do not use bleach/javex as we are aware of the bacteria required to keep the field warm. Our daily routines are a shower everyday each sometimes a second shower, laundry every 2 weeks (cold water washes) dishwasher every few days.

My answer maybe additional coverage however as i said earlier in one of my posts i already have 90 bales how many more do I need....the norm around here people only have maybe 20 bales, some people dont use bales and just use snow fence.....

Based on what you just told me it sounds like you are not putting enough effluent into the field for the size of the of the mound. They sized it to the size of the house/number of bath rooms, then with the both of you gone during day and night it is freezing. Haven't had a chance to look at the pictures, but based on the width of the mound it looks like you have three laterals. If it was mine I would consider shutting off the outer two laterals. Dig down put shut off in then, PVC pipe so you can get your hand down to shut it off, and so you can turn back on, when you get more people in the house. Then use timer control like I suggested Cover like you have been. Timer control by its self won't work your not making enough effluent..

 

[PILOON]

Couple more possibilities.
Is the effluent even getting to the field?
Blockage en route? low point that 'puddles' and freezes in the (looks long) feed line.

Generally your style of field would suggest a clay soil which is not very absorbent hence the above ground solution.
Then the question is there enough sand used.

How far is the field from the tank? and what is the grade like? and lastly what size and type of pipe is used to connect the tank to the field.

 

[v8only]

Couple more possibilities.
Is the effluent even getting to the field?
Blockage en route? low point that 'puddles' and freezes in the (looks long) feed line.

Generally your style of field would suggest a clay soil which is not very absorbent hence the above ground solution.
Then the question is there enough sand used.

How far is the field from the tank? and what is the grade like? and lastly what size and type of pipe is used to connect the tank to the field.

As of right now the effluent is not making it to the field as the field is frozen but i know in the fall it was as I have seen the liquid come out of the 4 access ports. I have never seen puddles or wet saturated ground anywhere in my yard around the distribution line or around the field.

I am not sure on how much sand was used, the field is maybe 80-100' from the tank, not sure on the grade and pipe underground, but i do know that during the summer when i open up the access ports and engage the pump the effluent does come out of the ports steady and equally there is no hesitation or something that would suggest bad flow or blockage. (i would assume based on the water well underground lines the line running from the tank to the field would be a rigid poly line) however i could be completely wrong.

 

[doxford jim]

It sure seems that you are still trying to rectify this situation blind.
It is extremely important that you get copies of the manuals and maintenance plan for your septic system. At least you will know what is supposed to be where and how deep in the soil etc.
It is a legal requirement that the builder supply the homeowner with the necessary documents to allow full and proper maintenance. You local building inspectors, Dept. of Health or RD should have copies as well.
Again, it seems that there is an awful lot of Bovine Manure being spread around over this problem. Someone is not doing their job properly and you are getting little help - if any at all.
I know that in BC, the people allowed to design and install septic systems are Registered On Site Waste Water Practitioners and Professional Engineers. Whoever designed and installed your system has the correct drawings and plans and should provide them to you - even if for a fee. Once armed with these documents you can start to make appropriate decisions and make repairs as needed. Without these documents you will just be guessing - which is what you appear to be doing right now.
Still, it is your septic tank not mine, so whatever you do is your business. BUT you need the right documentation.

 

[v8only]

ok i got some information: the system was done in accordance with all legal requirements it is stamped and signed. Soil and sand sampling was done, and inspected before covering.

sand layer is 40'x10' = 400 sq feet of sand, with a 4:1 slope.

system was sized for 330 gallons per day with a .15 Efflucent soil loading rate.

Preliminary infiltration = 330 gals / .15 = 2200 sq ft

 

[Egon]

Can the mound feed line drain after the pump shuts off. This question may be of the "Bovine Manure" category but just may be critical to your problem.

 

[v8only]

The mainline from the tank to the field can drain back, but from the manifold to the end of the field will not drain back as it is sloped towards the end of the field.