Setting Well Pressure

[buickanddeere]

I see that a lot and it is a certain clue that cycling is a problem. Not only is the low pressure noticeable in the shower and sprinklers, but you are over-stretching the diaphragm in the tank, which greatly shortens its life. Plus the fact that you notice the low pressure in the shower and sprinklers means the pump is still cycling.

In the last 50 years I have sold dozens of different brands of pumps. That 7 year average life was told to me by several of those manufacturers. For every pump that last 30 years, there is another that didn't last 30 days.

At one time I was replacing close to 2000 pumps a year. One year I made note of the date codes as I was loading the old pumps to haul off for scrap metal. Out of 2000 pumps of all makes and sizes, the 7 year average was almost perfect.

Pump is not short cycling as the original non bladder tank is not waterlogged . There is a recently installed 2nd 44 gallon diaphragm tank in the equipment shed . One of these days the pressure tank in the house will be junked . The water heater will also be replaced , with the bonous of having some additional floor space in the utility/laundry area . No room for an AC evaporator in the cold duct at the moment . Pump has been untouched in the well since 1976. When we bought the place in 2003. the clueless previous owners thought it was normal for the pump to cycle 2-3 times while filling a glass of water . Still lots of water flow in the shower at 20psi. The sprinklers have better coverage as the spray pattern changes with varying pressure .

 

[Valveman]

Pump is not short cycling as the original non bladder tank is not waterlogged . There is a recently installed 2nd 44 gallon diaphragm tank in the equipment shed . One of these days the pressure tank in the house will be junked . The water heater will also be replaced , with the bonous of having some additional floor space in the utility/laundry area . No room for an AC evaporator in the cold duct at the moment . Pump has been untouched in the well since 1976. When we bought the place in 2003. the clueless previous owners thought it was normal for the pump to cycle 2-3 times while filling a glass of water . Still lots of water flow in the shower at 20psi. The sprinklers have better coverage as the spray pattern changes with varying pressure .

Well they don't make pumps like they did in 76 anymore. Pumps up in the NE where the water is colder and not so much irrigation tend to last much longer. The average life expectancy of pumps gets shot to **** when you add in all those pumps in the south where the water is warmer and they irrigate for 6-8 months of the year. "Varying pressure makes the spray pattern have better coverage" is pretty funny. If your pump was doing that 6-8 months of the year, it wouldn't have lasted very long. Also that little screw in the end of the sprinkler nozzle is made to give even coverage, because the main stream of the sprinkler should hit the same spot on the corners every time around.

It is not really the best thing to have a non-bladder tank working beside a bladder tank. The non-bladder tank needs air charging regularly, and the bladder tank will shoot air out the faucets if it gets any air in it. Plus I bet those two tanks take up a lot of space.

Then if you replace the water heater with a tankless model, the varying pressure will keep it from working properly. And the wider the pressure bandwidth the worse the problem. it takes a certain amount of flow to keep and instant water heater on. When the pressure varies from 60 down to 40, or even to 20 as some have described, the shower head doesn't put out enough flow to keep the water heater on. Then when the pump comes on and the pressure increases, there is enough flow through the shower head that the hot water comes back on again. There are a lot of CSV's being used just to keep the pressure at a constant 50 PSI so the water heater will work, as it quits working when the pressure gets low.

Now if you really want to save space, use a CSV and a 10 gallon size tank. Switching to a tankless water heater and removing both of those big tanks would give you room to make another bed room out of the utility room. Plus the constant pressure from the CSV will make the showers stronger, the instant water heater stay working, give perfect spray pattern for the sprinklers, and make the pump last longer at the same time.

If you think you have good water flow in the shower at varying pressure down to 20 PSI, just imagine the shower at a constant 50 PSI. Some people tell me they no longer need soap, as the pressure will just blast the dirt off.

 

[turnkey4099]

Bit of a correction. the water goes into the bag, not the air.

 

[buickanddeere]

Well they don't make pumps like they did in 76 anymore. Pumps up in the NE where the water is colder and not so much irrigation tend to last much longer. The average life expectancy of pumps gets shot to **** when you add in all those pumps in the south where the water is warmer and they irrigate for 6-8 months of the year. "Varying pressure makes the spray pattern have better coverage" is pretty funny. If your pump was doing that 6-8 months of the year, it wouldn't have lasted very long. Also that little screw in the end of the sprinkler nozzle is made to give even coverage, because the main stream of the sprinkler should hit the same spot on the corners every time around.

It is not really the best thing to have a non-bladder tank working beside a bladder tank. The non-bladder tank needs air charging regularly, and the bladder tank will shoot air out the faucets if it gets any air in it. Plus I bet those two tanks take up a lot of space.

Then if you replace the water heater with a tankless model, the varying pressure will keep it from working properly. And the wider the pressure bandwidth the worse the problem. it takes a certain amount of flow to keep and instant water heater on. When the pressure varies from 60 down to 40, or even to 20 as some have described, the shower head doesn't put out enough flow to keep the water heater on. Then when the pump comes on and the pressure increases, there is enough flow through the shower head that the hot water comes back on again. There are a lot of CSV's being used just to keep the pressure at a constant 50 PSI so the water heater will work, as it quits working when the pressure gets low.

Now if you really want to save space, use a CSV and a 10 gallon size tank. Switching to a tankless water heater and removing both of those big tanks would give you room to make another bed room out of the utility room. Plus the constant pressure from the CSV will make the showers stronger, the instant water heater stay working, give perfect spray pattern for the sprinklers, and make the pump last longer at the same time.

If you think you have good water flow in the shower at varying pressure down to 20 PSI, just imagine the shower at a constant 50 PSI. Some people tell me they no longer need soap, as the pressure will just blast the dirt off.

Old tank is in the house and will be tossed in the trash on of these days. Will install a very small bladder tank in the house utility room to prevent water hammer. New large bladder tank is in the drive shed already in service.
Price of power here makes an instant heater impractical. We have a 60 gallon electric on a timer to operate only at the lowest rates. Haven't ran out of hot water yet.
I sort of enjoy the women folk's reactions when the water faucet or shower head pharts a little bit of air.

 

[turnkey4099]

<snip>
"Varying pressure makes the spray pattern have better coverage" is pretty funny. If your pump was doing that 6-8 months of the year, it wouldn't have lasted very long. Also that little screw in the end of the sprinkler nozzle is made to give even coverage, because the main stream of the sprinkler should hit the same spot on the corners every time around.

<snip>

Really? DThe spay will hit the same spot at 30psi as it does at 50psi? People hav been running impulse sprinkleers for over a century on the old (non CSV) systems. I wonder how come dthat has never been noticed.

1. It won't
2. It also won't wear out a pump

To expand on my previous post. The bag in a tank contains the water, the precharge air goes above the bag. As the tank draws down the bag collapses (shrinks). It does not stretch as you said.

I know you are sold on CSV and they ARE a good thing but you are talking so much that is in error.

 

[Valveman]

Well I have been fixing pump systems for a half century, having worked on more than a few hundred thousand water systems. I have seen it all, and know what works and what doesn't. Even before the CSV was around people who know what they are doing always tried to make every sprinkler zone large enough to keep the pump running constantly. And that is because it is common knowledge as well as written in all the motor specification sheets that cycling prematurely destroys pumps and motors. They even teach irrigators how to match the sprinkler zones to the pump size. Any irrigator that sets a sprinkler zone up that causes the pump to cycle would fail and not get a license.

Also every motor manufacturer has a published maximum number of cycles per day their pump/motor can survive. You will never hear them say cycling doesn't hurt.

Some tanks have a bag or bladder, while other have a diaphragm. Either way they need the correct air charge and on/off bandwidth to keep from over-stretching. With a low air charge and a wide bandwidth, the bag or diaphragm in an 80 gallon tank that is suppose to stretch to hold about 20 gallons, is now so stretched that is has 40 gallons in it. The same thing happens when you try to put 26 gallons of garbage in a 13 gallon trash bag.

Even when you have the correct air charge and 20 PSI between on and off and are not over-stretching the bag or diaphragm, it only has so many cycles built into it. A bladder or diaphragm going up and down repeatedly will cause the bag to break the the same way bending a wire back and forth will cause the wire to break.

A bag or bladder tank is not as good as a diaphragm tank. As the bag "collapses" it drags along the side of the tank in places, which wears a hole in the bag. A diaphragm in a tank is designed so that it goes up and down without ever touching the side of the tank. Diaphragm tanks will last longer because of this, but the diaphragm can still only flex so many times until it fails.

As long as every sprinkler zone is designed perfectly to keep the pump running continuously, you don't need a CSV. But making every sprinkler zone exactly the right size is almost impossible. Cycling on/off is the most destructive thing you can do to a pump system. The average person has been fed so many incorrect assumptions about pump systems that I understand why you think I would be "in error", but I am not. Everything I say is 100% correct, or I would not be saying it.

There are many pump companies that like the fact that people do not understand how destructive cycling is. That is what puts gas in the corporate jets. Goulds and several other pump companies labeled the CSV as a "disruptive product" in 1994. They said "eliminating the cycling makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks". And since they manufacture pumps and tanks, "anyone who mentions a CSV will be fired immediately".

I am glad you are lucky enough to not have had to replace your pump multiple times, as you should have. But I am not the one in error about this.

 

[beowulf]

Well, (no pun intended) I am back. I have replaced the pressure tank and the check valve - both were over 30 years old.

Before I did that there was a dull pulsing in the pipes in the house (not quite a banging) - the pace of the pulses would be about as you can say "on-off", "on-off" over and over at a normal speaking rate. When that happened I went to the well, heard the contacts hitting on and off at the same pace, removed the cover and observed them doing that. I than chatted with a local contractor and was told it could be the pressure tank or the check valve. So, because they were over 30 years old and I did not want things to go South on the wife when I am not here, I bought and replaced the tank and the check valve. The pressure switch was not replaced at this time but it is fairly new - maybe 3-4 months old. The pressure gauge is older.

So, after did all this, I double checked everything, and then turned on a bib to bleed air, then turned on the electricity and pump started up, and I adjusted the pressure switch to 40-60 settings. All seemed to be going well as pump was on and pressure mounted up to 60 and shut off. Then over a period of about 60 seconds the pressure would drop (not smoothly but a bit jerkily) down to 40 when it would turn on again BUT when it went on the same problems resurfaced, i.e., the contacts hit on and off and on and off continually as fast as you can say on-off, on-off. I cut the power off and then on, and it ran smoothly up to 60 lbs, shut off, and then again over about 60 seconds the pressure dropped to 40 and then the on-off, on-off happened again.

So, after a new tank and new check valve the same thing is happening. So, Valveman, or anyone else, can you help me understand what is happening? I am thinking about heading to town to get a new pressure switch but it is sort of new, and I am not certain what could go wrong with that - but really don't know. The pressure gauge itself I think is only a device so you know what the pressure is, not otherwise functional?

So, all that is left is the pump - but it is pumping water - but maybe not as it should? Everything seems to work until it hits the 40 pound cut in, and when it then turns on it is on-off, on-off, on-off until I cut the power.

Certainly hope you guys have some ideas - I have reached the top of my learning curve at the moment, but will start researching.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

 

[Jcoon]

Have u pulled the pressure switch off to make sure there are no mineral deposits in the tip where it sensing water pressure? Seen build up there before causing erratic pump operation.

 

[beowulf]

Thanks Jcoon, Just getting ready to do that as an on-line check found a post suggesting that a clog in the 1/4 inch pipe into the pressure switch may cause issues. I did clean out that nipple when I had it off a week or so ago - and it was narrowed with sediment, so reamed it out, but with all the work I have been doing it could have picked up some junk. I am also heading out to make sure the tank pressure is set correctly - it came precharged, but will check on that.

 

[Egon]

Waterlogged tank. Leaking downhole foot valve.